This might bring on a 'good' debate
- Thread starter romneymarsh
- Start date
romneymarsh
Member
- Location
- Romney Marsh
Could some bright spark expand these so that they can be read .
JohnGalway
Member
- Location
- Connemara, Ireland
I think shows in general have led to some farmers policies becoming harmful to the animal and borderline dishonest in their dealings with other people.
On that bombshell I'm off out to do some work
On that bombshell I'm off out to do some work
- Location
- Dumfries & Galloway
Havnt opened link... is this the Aussie who said this a couple years ago?
I think he is spot on.
There is ofcourse the social side of showing, which is great. But on the whole, the show ring is what destroys breeds, and works against our industry.
I think he is spot on.
There is ofcourse the social side of showing, which is great. But on the whole, the show ring is what destroys breeds, and works against our industry.
- Location
- Cornwall.
Farmers told to ditch livestock showing if they want to survive
Rhian Price
Friday 23 January 2015 12:30
A world-leading Australian beef breeder has told his UK counterparts it is time to ditch showing and embrace estimated breeding values (EBVs) if they want to survive against increasingly efficient white meat producers.
Pedigree Angus breeder Tom Gubbins of Te Mania Angus, Victoria, said: “Showing is a thing of the past. It served its use well when we didn’t have any other methods of breeding cattle, but it damages data.”
See also: Have your say: Is cattle showing holding back genetic progress?
Tom Gubbins
Mr Gubbins, who runs a herd 1,400 breeding females in Mortlake, Victoria, said showing no longer had “any industry relevance”.
He explained show animals could not be accurately performance recorded when they were being kept in a different environment to the rest of the herd.
“We need to start engaging people about EBVs and how we do that is we talk about it more and fear upsetting a few people, but we have to change it or we will be overrun by the chicken and pig industry.
“We are the lowest common denominator. Every time they make genetic gain and lower their costs it displaces beef from the supermarket,” Mr Gubbins warned fellow farmers at the British Cattle Breeding Conference, Telford, Shropshire.
Te Mania facts
He said the fact commercial breeders were happier to choose breeding stock by eye was holding the industry back and these farmers must start using performance data to help make objective decisions.
Mr Gubbins added that breeders also had a role to play and needed to work closer with their clients to improve the acceptance of performance data.
The breeder works with an alliance of 43 commercial beef farmers using Te Mania genetics.
These producers can lease bulls or buy semen at cost price but Te Mania retain exclusive rights to selling breeding bulls.
To ensure all breeding rights remain at Te Mania bulls born on alliance farms are castrated and carcass data is fed back to the stud with the aim of making further genetic improvements.
Rhian Price
Friday 23 January 2015 12:30
A world-leading Australian beef breeder has told his UK counterparts it is time to ditch showing and embrace estimated breeding values (EBVs) if they want to survive against increasingly efficient white meat producers.
Pedigree Angus breeder Tom Gubbins of Te Mania Angus, Victoria, said: “Showing is a thing of the past. It served its use well when we didn’t have any other methods of breeding cattle, but it damages data.”
See also: Have your say: Is cattle showing holding back genetic progress?
Tom Gubbins
Mr Gubbins, who runs a herd 1,400 breeding females in Mortlake, Victoria, said showing no longer had “any industry relevance”.
He explained show animals could not be accurately performance recorded when they were being kept in a different environment to the rest of the herd.
“We need to start engaging people about EBVs and how we do that is we talk about it more and fear upsetting a few people, but we have to change it or we will be overrun by the chicken and pig industry.
“We are the lowest common denominator. Every time they make genetic gain and lower their costs it displaces beef from the supermarket,” Mr Gubbins warned fellow farmers at the British Cattle Breeding Conference, Telford, Shropshire.
Te Mania facts
- Spans 2,600ha
- Gets just 28in of rain a year
- Runs 3,500 head of cattle
- The herd has been recording since the 1950s and was one of the first to join Breedplan in 1971
- Cattle are run in contemporary mob groups of 600 so progeny data can be accurately compared in one environment
- More than twice as many Angus Group Breedplan leaders as any other stud
He said the fact commercial breeders were happier to choose breeding stock by eye was holding the industry back and these farmers must start using performance data to help make objective decisions.
Mr Gubbins added that breeders also had a role to play and needed to work closer with their clients to improve the acceptance of performance data.
The breeder works with an alliance of 43 commercial beef farmers using Te Mania genetics.
These producers can lease bulls or buy semen at cost price but Te Mania retain exclusive rights to selling breeding bulls.
To ensure all breeding rights remain at Te Mania bulls born on alliance farms are castrated and carcass data is fed back to the stud with the aim of making further genetic improvements.
- Location
- Cornwall.
Showring is holding back genetic improvements in sheep
Caroline Stocks
Wednesday 13 April 2016 10:58
© Tim Scrivener
Improving the genetics of the UK sheep flock remains one of the biggest areas of untapped potential for the country’s sheep farmers, according to a breeding specialist.
Samuel Boon, AHDB breeding services manager, said too few farmers were recording data and making use of genetic information to produce animals that met market demands.
Instead he said producers were still being led by the show ring when it came to deciding which traits they should be selecting for.
See also: Farmers told to ditch livestock showing if they want to survive
Speaking at the BSAS annual conference at the University of Chester (6 April), Mr Boon said the potential for UK sheep genetics was “absolutely massive”.
“We are still only recording 25% of terminal sires in the UK, while only 10% of producers are actively using Estimated Breeding Values across the breeds,” he said.
Reluctance to record data
The achievements made in sheep genetics over the past 25 years through the use of group breeding and sire reference schemes, and the introduction of technology such as ultrasound should not be underestimated.
[Britain’s most-expensive ram] was valued for its perfectly-shaped head and legs, tight skin and top-quality fleece – none of the traits which have any influence on how it tastes Samuel Boon, AHDB breeding services manager
But the high running costs of groups, coupled with some farmers’ reluctance to record data properly and a focus on how sheep perform in the show ring meant that producers were not making the genetic gains they potentially could, Mr Boon told delegates.
“History shows that it’s not always the best genetics that has the most success,” he said. “It’s the ones that market the most effectively which dictate breeding objectives.”
Mr Boon pointed to Britain’s most-expensive ram – Texel Tophill Joe – that broke records when it was bought for £128,000 in 2003.
“It was valued for its perfectly-shaped head and legs, tight skin and top-quality fleece – none of the traits which have any influence on how it tastes.
“It may have produced more than £1m-worth of offspring, but in reality it probably did more than £1m of damage to the sheep industry.”
Hill breeds
Issues with recording data – particularly on hill farms – were also an issue for genetic improvements in the sector, Mr Boon added.
“It isn’t a problem with the systems and technology we have, it’s because we haven’t seen a change in the market. There isn’t the demand for recorded rams when people buy hill breeds like there is when people buy Charollais or other breeds.”
The challenge for the industry in future was to build the momentum of recording and sharing data, and utilise new technologies such as CT scanning to identify traits that could improve genetic gains.
“In future we will have commercial progeny tests which will look for the relationship between pedigree and commercially derived phenotypes,” he said.
“Signet’s first combined breed analysis for sheep in the UK will also enable a degree of breed comparison in the future and generate EBVs for crossbred lambs.
“We have over 700 performance-recording flocks, but we need people to engage,” he added.
“We need to get more people to collect data, look at it and understand how that can use it to influence their breeding decisions.”
Caroline Stocks
Wednesday 13 April 2016 10:58
Improving the genetics of the UK sheep flock remains one of the biggest areas of untapped potential for the country’s sheep farmers, according to a breeding specialist.
Samuel Boon, AHDB breeding services manager, said too few farmers were recording data and making use of genetic information to produce animals that met market demands.
Instead he said producers were still being led by the show ring when it came to deciding which traits they should be selecting for.
See also: Farmers told to ditch livestock showing if they want to survive
Speaking at the BSAS annual conference at the University of Chester (6 April), Mr Boon said the potential for UK sheep genetics was “absolutely massive”.
“We are still only recording 25% of terminal sires in the UK, while only 10% of producers are actively using Estimated Breeding Values across the breeds,” he said.
Reluctance to record data
The achievements made in sheep genetics over the past 25 years through the use of group breeding and sire reference schemes, and the introduction of technology such as ultrasound should not be underestimated.
[Britain’s most-expensive ram] was valued for its perfectly-shaped head and legs, tight skin and top-quality fleece – none of the traits which have any influence on how it tastes Samuel Boon, AHDB breeding services manager
But the high running costs of groups, coupled with some farmers’ reluctance to record data properly and a focus on how sheep perform in the show ring meant that producers were not making the genetic gains they potentially could, Mr Boon told delegates.
“History shows that it’s not always the best genetics that has the most success,” he said. “It’s the ones that market the most effectively which dictate breeding objectives.”
Mr Boon pointed to Britain’s most-expensive ram – Texel Tophill Joe – that broke records when it was bought for £128,000 in 2003.
“It was valued for its perfectly-shaped head and legs, tight skin and top-quality fleece – none of the traits which have any influence on how it tastes.
“It may have produced more than £1m-worth of offspring, but in reality it probably did more than £1m of damage to the sheep industry.”
Hill breeds
Issues with recording data – particularly on hill farms – were also an issue for genetic improvements in the sector, Mr Boon added.
“It isn’t a problem with the systems and technology we have, it’s because we haven’t seen a change in the market. There isn’t the demand for recorded rams when people buy hill breeds like there is when people buy Charollais or other breeds.”
The challenge for the industry in future was to build the momentum of recording and sharing data, and utilise new technologies such as CT scanning to identify traits that could improve genetic gains.
“In future we will have commercial progeny tests which will look for the relationship between pedigree and commercially derived phenotypes,” he said.
“Signet’s first combined breed analysis for sheep in the UK will also enable a degree of breed comparison in the future and generate EBVs for crossbred lambs.
“We have over 700 performance-recording flocks, but we need people to engage,” he added.
“We need to get more people to collect data, look at it and understand how that can use it to influence their breeding decisions.”
romneymarsh
Member
- Location
- Romney Marsh
Thanks
romneymarsh
Member
- Location
- Romney Marsh
All we need now is an article saying the live markets fleeting assessment by dealers for aesthetic traits is not helping those striving for greater efficiencies, and we'll have a full house.
I think I find myself agreeing with all of it.
I think I find myself agreeing with all of it.
spin cycle
Member
- Location
- north norfolk
trouble is some of the animals i've seen with ebvs look like screws...thats holding back ebvs more than showing IMO
As already mentioned in other threads EBVs are being fiddled all the time and so very few people trust them. Neither do I trust the grading figures I get back for stock sold direct to the slaughter house, if we head the same way as poultry and pork which both taste of nothing nowadays we mat as well give up.
Last edited:
dogandstick
Member
- Location
- on the horizon
On the cost side of recording- if all "pedigree" stock were recorded, would there be any need for "societies"?- apart from to publicise and market the breed- which would have less benefit if the animals genetics could be "valued" rather than it's phenotypal qualities. If more were recorded, would it bring down the cost of doing it?
Ebvs cannot be the sole purpose of buying an animal, maybe if i had a pen of bulls/rams yea it mighy help you pick one out, but to go and compare it to the guy in the next pen it cant work, and never will work because some people are more honest than others! Ill never forget a charolais cattle breeder turning to me oh had hell of a calf born blah blah blah, monster this and that, only to turn around and say ill put it down on paper that he was a low birth weight to make his calving easy look more appealing.....and thats just one!!
- Location
- Dumfries & Galloway
Does the fact stock are bought/sold on figures alone in Aus/NZ - and it works! - shows how dishonest UK agriculture is??
Maybe if we went through the bloodshed that is the loss of subs, we as an entire industry would start pulling in one direction. Then we could compete on the global stage...
More to life
Member
- Location
- Somerset
The dairy cow is the best example of this as you can so easily measure the results. I can safely say that show cows are the last thing you need on a commercial dairy farm on any system.
GenuineRisk
Member
- Location
- Somerset
I see he's called 'Gubbins'.
Oh ffs, yep, let's stop showing, marts, breed societies - bin the lot of them.......
So then, just who is going to actually be the interface between Joe Public and Farming where livestock's concerned, then ? No one breeder is going to totally screw up a breed - not even ten breeders in a numerically large breed and how patronizing to assume that so few will have such an effect on everyone else, especially considering some of the comments above who are so anti showing - if you're not 'taken in' in, why assume others are ? Tad arrogant if you ask me. Go to any cattle line (can only speak for cattle lines, would presume same in other species but can't speak for them) and you will see a variation in type, sure as hell you'll hear completely different summations of the cattle on show from competing breeders - we all don't slavishly follow everyone else - far from it!! Commercially, you'll only survive if your cattle do the job you describe on its tin - fail and bad news travels fast, doesn't take much to tarnish or lose a reputation and the vast majority of breeders are, in the main, sensible folk. Take away that opportunity to compete and many good breeders just won't bother. A good show animal may not be in working clothes but sensible breeders don't stuff them full of feed - who wants a potential breeding female with fat round her ovaries?! We certainly don't and it would pay, I do agree, to counsel judges to consider that fact more than they do.
EBVs, whether people show or don't show, are suspect and the same people who are on this particular soap box are no 'better' ethically than those they are deriding - human nature being what it is, there are fixers in every walk of life. We breed record, it costs us every year, so someone, somewhere is making money out of it but probably, in these hard times, not enough, hence an article with Armageddon tendencies.....
Showing is a whole lot more than just those few minutes in the show ring - anyone who has ever manned the cattle lines at a big Agricultural show will tell you how much educating is done with Joe Public and the satisfaction we get when you get guided groups of people come up to you to ask about the cattle, many of them with disabilities of all sorts, sometimes physical - sometimes mental - they may be sight impaired - to be able to pull one of our animals off the line and let them feel them, pat them, talk to them - well it's a privilege for us and makes a massive difference to their day when you see their faces!
More I think about the above article, the more the phrase "Those that can, do, those that can't, preach EBVs" (sic!!) comes to mind....
Oh ffs, yep, let's stop showing, marts, breed societies - bin the lot of them.......
So then, just who is going to actually be the interface between Joe Public and Farming where livestock's concerned, then ? No one breeder is going to totally screw up a breed - not even ten breeders in a numerically large breed and how patronizing to assume that so few will have such an effect on everyone else, especially considering some of the comments above who are so anti showing - if you're not 'taken in' in, why assume others are ? Tad arrogant if you ask me. Go to any cattle line (can only speak for cattle lines, would presume same in other species but can't speak for them) and you will see a variation in type, sure as hell you'll hear completely different summations of the cattle on show from competing breeders - we all don't slavishly follow everyone else - far from it!! Commercially, you'll only survive if your cattle do the job you describe on its tin - fail and bad news travels fast, doesn't take much to tarnish or lose a reputation and the vast majority of breeders are, in the main, sensible folk. Take away that opportunity to compete and many good breeders just won't bother. A good show animal may not be in working clothes but sensible breeders don't stuff them full of feed - who wants a potential breeding female with fat round her ovaries?! We certainly don't and it would pay, I do agree, to counsel judges to consider that fact more than they do.
EBVs, whether people show or don't show, are suspect and the same people who are on this particular soap box are no 'better' ethically than those they are deriding - human nature being what it is, there are fixers in every walk of life. We breed record, it costs us every year, so someone, somewhere is making money out of it but probably, in these hard times, not enough, hence an article with Armageddon tendencies.....
Showing is a whole lot more than just those few minutes in the show ring - anyone who has ever manned the cattle lines at a big Agricultural show will tell you how much educating is done with Joe Public and the satisfaction we get when you get guided groups of people come up to you to ask about the cattle, many of them with disabilities of all sorts, sometimes physical - sometimes mental - they may be sight impaired - to be able to pull one of our animals off the line and let them feel them, pat them, talk to them - well it's a privilege for us and makes a massive difference to their day when you see their faces!
More I think about the above article, the more the phrase "Those that can, do, those that can't, preach EBVs" (sic!!) comes to mind....
- Location
- Mendips Somerset
couldnt agree more with the op , problem is the way we record , cattle is not so big an issue because they are often grown and finished indoors , but terminal sheep !,
I do firmly believe in the ultimate aim of recording , but not the way the uk currently achieves this , its a marketable scheme first and improvement second - to signet . similar many of the breeders , show ring first , figures add the icing or to add a marketable edge .
I do firmly believe in the ultimate aim of recording , but not the way the uk currently achieves this , its a marketable scheme first and improvement second - to signet . similar many of the breeders , show ring first , figures add the icing or to add a marketable edge .
- Location
- Buxton, Derbyshire
I have a couple of issues with the Sam Boon article.
Firstly Sam is employed by signet so is obviously going to be in favour of ebv's. The more recording being done the more he gets paid, or if everyone stopped he'd be out of a job. So he's obviously going to be biased!
Also his comment:
And yes, if you can't tell from my profile pic, I am a fan of showing. Both to promote agriculture to Joe public and our herd/breed to local farmers.
Firstly Sam is employed by signet so is obviously going to be in favour of ebv's. The more recording being done the more he gets paid, or if everyone stopped he'd be out of a job. So he's obviously going to be biased!
Also his comment:
Can I ask which one of his ebv's has a direct impact on taste?? Last time I had a lamb chop it's birth weight, lambing ease, growth rate, litter size, worm resistance ebv's didn't make it taste any better than his nice head!
And yes, if you can't tell from my profile pic, I am a fan of showing. Both to promote agriculture to Joe public and our herd/breed to local farmers.
polk_farmer
Member
- Location
- South West (Gods Country)
So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter how much it costs a commercial farmer to get that chop on the plate? Just as long as it tastes OK??
spin cycle
Member
- Location
- north norfolk
if the breed societies got back to what their breeds should be doing rather than what they look like there'd be no need for ebvs
as for taste....i can't get enough fat on my beltex/texel x wilts before they hit 22kg to give them much flavour....but a 20kg wilt is terrific.....but consumers don't want to see fat so they get what they deserve
as for taste....i can't get enough fat on my beltex/texel x wilts before they hit 22kg to give them much flavour....but a 20kg wilt is terrific.....but consumers don't want to see fat so they get what they deserve
Wolds Beef
Member
@nielo I am surprised he has not been on. Until we split the partnership about 14/15 years ago I was involved in a high index Pedigree Suffolk flock not unlike neil's charolais's . We did show to try and sell our high performing rams. We ended up being drawn out of the ring early at most of the large shows. We had lost the bone in the head and legs but we had the muscling and growth rates. The show pens ended up being a stand to explain to other breeders what we were doing. A ex student of ours ran a flock in Hampshire and for several years bought our rams. His boss, an aristocrat from that area, walked around the lambing pens one year and kept pointing out cracking young lambs, all Matt would say was Lincolnshire! His boss eventually twigged and said, I suppose your going for more rams later this year and Matt just said YES! I agree totally with the figures job for sheep. My brother has got a following of breeding flocks buying breeding sheep from the ORTUM suffolks all over Europe.
WB
WB