Thistles in grassland

[Kiwi Pete]

One thing that spreading/californian/creeping thistle DOES NOT ENJOY is when you pull a subsoiler through them and cut up their rhizome
Don't imagine the aerator will have quite the depth for that - thistles mainly survive so well simply because of lack of anything with deep roots, so they have a source of moisture and nutrition that most other species we sow just can't reach - so they grow in any and all conditions as a result.

I will save you reading yet another "abandon monoculture" speech - but I will add that chicory is about as close to thistle as possible, and will outcompete them for resources reasonably quickly if they are able - but reducing compaction will help other species also compete with the thistle/ragwort type weeds of the world.

It is a lack of depth that is the issue (I'm sure you know what I mean without spelling it out) that causes the problem, masking the symptoms is only effective while you keep 'doing' - nature loves filling an empty niche

May still be a bit damp to relieve compaction without simply causing deeper compaction, ideally the ground should be "hard" so that the soil strata "shatters" with the lateral forces applied by the spikes.
They still do a job in the wetter soil but they will do a better job the drier it is (provided it still goes in to depth, and you aren't in a drought, they do stress things a bit)

 

[milkloss]

Thistlex is good but takes some grass with it , does MCPA scorch ?

I think it will damage the grass especially later on when the grass is taller. I did an emergency dock control in some irg quite late as I wasn’t on the ball. Just wanted to stop them seeding really as I knew it wouldn’t kill them. Anyhow, my ‘test strips’ I left at a guess had 25% more bulk of grass compared to the area that was sprayed with mcpa.

I would say if you’re going to use it then do it sooner rather than later.

 

[Ukjay]

One thing that spreading/californian/creeping thistle DOES NOT ENJOY is when you pull a subsoiler through them and cut up their rhizome
Don't imagine the aerator will have quite the depth for that - thistles mainly survive so well simply because of lack of anything with deep roots, so they have a source of moisture and nutrition that most other species we sow just can't reach - so they grow in any and all conditions as a result.

I will save you reading yet another "abandon monoculture" speech - but I will add that chicory is about as close to thistle as possible, and will outcompete them for resources reasonably quickly if they are able - but reducing compaction will help other species also compete with the thistle/ragwort type weeds of the world.

It is a lack of depth that is the issue (I'm sure you know what I mean without spelling it out) that causes the problem, masking the symptoms is only effective while you keep 'doing' - nature loves filling an empty niche

May still be a bit damp to relieve compaction without simply causing deeper compaction, ideally the ground should be "hard" so that the soil strata "shatters" with the lateral forces applied by the spikes.
They still do a job in the wetter soil but they will do a better job the drier it is (provided it still goes in to depth, and you aren't in a drought, they do stress things a bit)

OK, question time again (apologies in advance):

For my use of the pasture (Horse Grazing, Hay, and some sheep grazing to avoid too much tractor traffic), what would be the recommended approach to create a better diversity (of the more beneficial kind for my needs)?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

OK, question time again (apologies in advance):

For my use of the pasture (Horse Grazing, Hay, and some sheep grazing to avoid too much tractor traffic), what would be the recommended approach to create a better diversity (of the more beneficial kind for my needs)?

You're asking the right type of question to have successful outcomes
Create as big a group of stock as you can put together, keep them moving (daily is best, the more you control their movement the better) and allow proper pasture recovery time.
Rotational grazing is only part of the solution, because it becomes "habitual overgrazing" which costs you
Basically I would attempt to work out how long it takes to recover and practice grazing with that always in your mind.
Grazing at certain heights or quantities or every 24 days is the type of grazing that causes species to take over and others to disappear - by contrast if you give all the species proper recovery and then jam animals on a small break, they eat most of it the same, which begets resilience and diversity.

(If the colleges taught that lesson, farmers would be alot better off, but there would be much less spray and seed sold)

 

[Ukjay]

You're asking the right type of question to have successful outcomes
Create as big a group of stock as you can put together, keep them moving (daily is best, the more you control their movement the better) and allow proper pasture recovery time.
Rotational grazing is only part of the solution, because it becomes "habitual overgrazing" which costs you
Basically I would attempt to work out how long it takes to recover and practice grazing with that always in your mind.
Grazing at certain heights or quantities or every 24 days is the type of grazing that causes species to take over and others to disappear - by contrast if you give all the species proper recovery and then jam animals on a small break, they eat most of it the same, which begets resilience and diversity.

(If the colleges taught that lesson, farmers would be alot better off, but there would be much less spray and seed sold)

Thanks for the support here Pete, it is appreciated!

Just so that I get my head straight, when you refer to grazing heights and recovery times - are you saying it is more beneficial to say ignore grazing height as a metric (as some I see graze hard around here and the grass does not seem to recover so well in the hotter weather), but focus more on timing due to environmental influences (dry weather etc), therefore allowing for example better moisture retention to the benefit of allowing better diversity to flourish, rather than allowing the more resilient species to thrive which are probably not the ones we wish for?

Obviously for us, we will be looking for a small number of our own sheep to start with, as I will be learning here - but the plan is to disect the paddock that the horses are not in to graze rather than tractor mowing, then move them through, to then move to the next paddock and repeat the process. The paddocks are fenced into roughly 1 acre paddocks, and one is always idle at a time (3 Nags) but rotated - so the natural grazers are my plan.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Thanks for the support here Pete, it is appreciated!

Just so that I get my head straight, when you refer to grazing heights and recovery times - are you saying it is more beneficial to say ignore grazing height as a metric (as some I see graze hard around here and the grass does not seem to recover so well in the hotter weather), but focus more on timing due to environmental influences (dry weather etc), therefore allowing for example better moisture retention to the benefit of allowing better diversity to flourish, rather than allowing the more resilient species to thrive which are probably not the ones we wish for?

Obviously for us, we will be looking for a small number of our own sheep to start with, as I will be learning here - but the plan is to disect the paddock that the horses are not in to graze rather than tractor mowing, then move them through, to then move to the next paddock and repeat the process. The paddocks are fenced into roughly 1 acre paddocks, and one is always idle at a time (3 Nags) but rotated - so the natural grazers are my plan.

There is no recipe - that is where "holistic" comes into its own.
Management is very complex as a subject, so the idea of "put them in 8 inches and take them out at 3" is only going to go so far before it breaks down.
Pasture recovery is the main concept, there are so many cool "soundbites" in Ag it would make anyone baulk, but what you describe is overgrazing. Modern pasture management seems to revolve around it!
Hence weed ingress, because those plants aren't overgrazed, if grazed at all, they soon dominate.
They are never grazed before they have recovered, to put it in context.
Your ryegrass, on the other hand, most certainly can be, most rotations only allow the growth of one leaf before the next grazing, maybe two.. which is still insufficient time for carbon to come in to your farm, it is beginning to get there and then it is stopped again.
The 'planned' bit is the most important piece of the puzzle really, you will have a rough idea already of how the year ahead will influence your pasture, slow now and soon growth will be rapid, then huge as the grasses try to go reproductive; so you can roughly plan ahead when those will happen and how you will graze to maximise performance.
Because it will generate so much more grass, extra stock maybe needed, or a cut of hay.. all this can be planned for now - it becomes a proactive rather than reactive way to manage, hence why urea isn't needed to fill holes here, it is a matter of ad-lib rather than rations.

So sorry to the OP for the total hijack, someone should start a "holistic planned grazing" thread?
It is all relevant, weeds in grassland come from non-holistic forms of management, but we could probably do better service to the topic at length.

 

[hendrebc]

OK then, I gotta ask - how would you remove the hoof marks (no digs about the horses - I know most farmers do not like them) and also the undulations in full time paddocks which have not been removed by having sheep on the land?

Oh, and the roller I was referring to was not a std flat roller either - it was one of the spiked ones like below to hopefully help some tractor compaction but the cost is prohibitive currently:
View attachment 662034

Theres a few people round here that go out contracting with one of those. Maybe you could find someone to do it for you. One hires his out for not much money a day if you prefered. They do quitr a good job of levelling poached areas im told but have never used one. Probably best to let ut dry out a bit first. IME horse mess will recover on its own in time if given a chance and if not too bad.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Theres a few people round here that go out contracting with one of those. Maybe you could find someone to do it for you. One hires his out for not much money a day if you prefered. They do quitr a good job of levelling poached areas im told but have never used one. Probably best to let ut dry out a bit first. IME horse mess will recover on its own in time if given a chance and if not too bad.

Completely 100% agree, "horse damage" is a time related issue, so time will cure it via different management techniques.
Maybe they could be "fenced" and "backfenced" even with ropes, just to prevent all that regrowth pruning that seems to go hand-in-hand with horse grazing practice?
A good example of what goes wrong, really:
no recovery
continuous regrazing
next to no groundcover
root-pruning, which hurts stressed plants even more.. all so horses don't colic.
Rather than having whole paddocks subjected to it, aim to keep that "hammered" area small, and changing would be my suggestion.. soil and plants like ocassional stress, but not chronic stress.

 

[Ukjay]

So sorry to the OP for the total hijack, someone should start a "holistic planned grazing" thread?

Yes I agree, my apologies too.

OK then, as I am the one that moved the OP topic slightly, I will therefore start a thread for us all who wish to dive into Holistic planned grazing - but obviously my approach will be from a learning angle, so all input welcomed (no matter how direct and to the point) maybe the mods could gie us a private room to discuss it, whereby to have access there is an agreement that there is no report button etc, the topic is for adults only whom are not offended by words. If in doubt - stay the 'F' out

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Yes I agree, my apologies too.

OK then, as I am the one that moved the OP topic slightly, I will therefore start a thread for us all who wish to dive into Holistic planned grazing - but obviously my approach will be from a learning angle, so all input welcomed (no matter how direct and to the point) maybe the mods could gie us a private room to discuss it, whereby to have access there is an agreement that there is no report button etc, the topic is for adults only whom are not offended by words. If in doubt - stay the 'F' out

a few seconds too late tagged you in.

 

[Ukjay]

a few seconds too late tagged you in.

I saw that and have already commented me ole mucker. The alert didnt work for that area though - so maybe that is turned off due to the hacking

 

[ollie989898]

I think it will damage the grass especially later on when the grass is taller. I did an emergency dock control in some irg quite late as I wasn’t on the ball. Just wanted to stop them seeding really as I knew it wouldn’t kill them. Anyhow, my ‘test strips’ I left at a guess had 25% more bulk of grass compared to the area that was sprayed with mcpa.

I would say if you’re going to use it then do it sooner rather than later.

Use flurox if its emergency on docks its gentler.

 

[milkloss]

Use flurox if its emergency on docks its gentler.

Yes, I guess that’s the better option. Having said that though, there was also a good amount of clover in it in places which obv died back at the time but is back this year..........so are the docks!

 

[ollie989898]

I reckon you chaps are being a bit keen going for thistles yet they want to be unfurled and about the size of a tea saucer. Too small and you will struggle to catch them. Nice steady spraying at 300L of water if you can.

And one thing I neglected to mention. If you are mixing products from different manufacturers they will walk away if you have an issue later ie the docks didnt die. Its the same in the entire arable world. They will support some two or three way mixes, beyond that they dont want to know.

 

[betweenthelines]

Why not dig 'em out with a narrow spade or a mattock?

 

[bobk]

Why not dig 'em out with a narrow spade or a mattock?

Haven't got a mattock .... or a spade

 

[czechmate]

Haven't got a mattock .... or a spade

Thought you were on holiday ?

 

[glasshouse]

Total waste of time and fuel and does more harm than good

If you like stones zinging past your ears off the mower/tedder

 

[czechmate]

Why not just leave them and put them in little bales for those customers that you just don't like

 

[bobk]

Thought you were on holiday ?

This tuesday , put the kettle on