Thoughts on loosing BPS and replacing with ELMS?

[Mixedupfarmer]

bin all the current plans...£80/ac flat rate on condition that farm scores points based on old/modified els scheme....capped at £150,000 per holding

Just going to put / keep £80 / acre on farm rents, another land owner subsidy? I suppose it would be better /easier than trying to get a sizeable rent reduction.

 

[delilah]

In many ways uk agriculture has never been more vibrant with plenty of youth visible at all levels.

Am delighted if that's the case in your neck of the woods. Here in the South East I find it all very gloomy tbh. The infrastructure is continually contracting with everything from livestock vets to tractor mechanics harder to find, abattoirs an endangered species, land continually being amalgamated into fewer hands. Recently traveled from Kent to Norfolk and there is one word to describe the countryside. Empty. You just don't see anyone. I can't see how an industry can carry on along the current trajectory. ELMS has the capability to achieve so much, but to do so Defra have to recognise that without skilled people on the ground no 'public good' can be delivered.

 

[Tubbylew]

Just to tie those two comments together, the greatest damage caused by ELMS could be through the accelerated hemorrhaging of knowledge. No industry can keep 'consolidating' year on year without a tipping point eventually being reached. Critical mass. Once you've lost it, I'm not sure that you can get it back even over decades.

Critical mass in the rural economy left the building years ago i'm afraid.

 

[topground]

How do government carry out checks on building sites for compliance with construction standards, take away businesses for compliance with food hygiene standards, engineering sites for compliance with and safety regulations or clothing factories for compliance with employment laws? What agreements do those sectors sign up to that give authority for such access? Those who think the threat of withholding subsidies is the only means to leverage control over an industry must be living on another planet!

Enforcement by authorised officers of the enforcing authority. Construction HSE. Food Hygiene , local authority EHOs . Engineering HSE. Clothing factories Dept of Employment. All determined by statute and the sanctions are set out and any appeal process through the Magistrates and Crown Courts .
These sectors have no option to sign up to give authority to enforcement officers because they are not receiving direct subsidies, the law of the land applies.
Message from planet Earth, UK branch. Unless there is new legislation passed by Parliament there is no control available to government over the use of land in the absence of subsidies.

 

[Jimdog1]

Critical mass in the rural economy left the building years ago i'm afraid.

Not here in North Devon. And why? Lots of small and medium sized farms with lots of livestock and a diversity of cropping. If your listening Defra/Natural England/RPA - look after and cherish areas such as this that deliver bio-diversity, green spaces for the masses and vibrant rural economies where you can actually earn a living without having to commute.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Enforcement by authorised officers of the enforcing authority. Construction HSE. Food Hygiene , local authority EHOs . Engineering HSE. Clothing factories Dept of Employment. All determined by statute and the sanctions are set out and any appeal process through the Magistrates and Crown Courts .
These sectors have no option to sign up to give authority to enforcement officers because they are not receiving direct subsidies, the law of the land applies.
Message from planet Earth, UK branch. Unless there is new legislation passed by Parliament there is no control available to government over the use of land in the absence of subsidies.

Don't be so sure.

Isn't that exactly what all the fuss is about in relation to the EA revising their interpretation of the existing "Farming rules for water"...

NE could similarly tighten up their interpretation of the CROW Act, the EIA regs, the W&C Act etc. The EA could scrap some of the current waste exemptions.

None of that would take primary legislation.

 

[steveR]

Just to tie those two comments together, the greatest damage caused by ELMS could be through the accelerated hemorrhaging of knowledge. No industry can keep 'consolidating' year on year without a tipping point eventually being reached. Critical mass. Once you've lost it, I'm not sure that you can get it back even over decades.

And we cannot get our friends from Eastern Yurrup in any more, to offer that expertise that is now lacking in some industries...

 

[Northern territory]

Don't be so sure.

Isn't that exactly what all the fuss is about in relation to the EA revising their interpretation of the existing "Farming rules for water"...

NE could similarly tighten up their interpretation of the CROW Act, the EIA regs, the W&C Act etc. The EA could scrap some of the current waste exemptions.

None of that would take primary legislation.

I just can’t see the appetite. One thing legislating, another thing policing it. Won’t the legal costs be far higher on such a wide scale. It would be a lot less straightforward than docking some sfp.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I just can’t see the appetite. One thing legislating, another thing policing it. Won’t the legal costs be far higher on such a wide scale. It would be a lot less straightforward than docking some sfp.

Where was it I read about "citizen policing", a bit like "citizen science". The idea was for interested locals to do all the regular monitoring and call in a qualified inspector from the regulator of they thought they saw something that shouldn't be happening.

I'm not saying it WILL happen, just that it's being considered in some quarters.

 

[Northern territory]

Where was it I read about "citizen policing", a bit like "citizen science". The idea was for interested locals to do all the regular monitoring and call in a qualified inspector from the regulator of they thought they saw something that shouldn't be happening.

I'm not saying it WILL happen, just that it's being considered in some quarters.

That’s probably already happening. Plenty of busy bodies in these parts.

 

[Tubbylew]

Where was it I read about "citizen policing", a bit like "citizen science". The idea was for interested locals to do all the regular monitoring and call in a qualified inspector from the regulator of they thought they saw something that shouldn't be happening.

I'm not saying it WILL happen, just that it's being considered in some quarters.

Christ were not in 1960's east germany are we?

 

[delilah]

And we cannot get our friends from Eastern Yurrup in any more, to offer that expertise that is now lacking in some industries...

Anyone who wants to know how difficult it is once critical mass has gone, should speak to my colleague with a wool processing mini-mill. All of the skills she needs to draw on are in the churchyard.
Recently had a much needed boost with a lady new to the area coming on board, her parents had a tailoring business and she is keen to put the skills they taught her to good use. That tailoring business was in Poland.

 

[spin cycle]

Anyone who wants to know how difficult it is once critical mass has gone, should speak to my colleague with a wool processing mini-mill. All of the skills she needs to draw on are in the churchyard.
Recently had a much needed boost with a lady new to the area coming on board, her parents had a tailoring business and she is keen to put the skills they taught her to good use. That tailoring business was in Poland.

you do know stoke have just scored?

 

[delilah]

you do know stoke have just scored?

cause I do .

 

[topground]

Don't be so sure.

Isn't that exactly what all the fuss is about in relation to the EA revising their interpretation of the existing "Farming rules for water"...

NE could similarly tighten up their interpretation of the CROW Act, the EIA regs, the W&C Act etc. The EA could scrap some of the current waste exemptions.

None of that would take primary legislation.

Legislation is interpreted by the Courts. If you are not happy with the interpretation of the law by a public body you have the option to carry on until they prosecute you if they dare. Case law determines the interpretation of legislation. Unless there is a precedent that can be quoted the case will be determined ultimately by the courts. If the EA decide they want to interpret something differently that will either be because there is new legislation in which case the courts will again decide or there might be a policy change from DEFRA which has no basis in legislation but more of a try on.

 

[Jimdog1]

Where was it I read about "citizen policing", a bit like "citizen science". The idea was for interested locals to do all the regular monitoring and call in a qualified inspector from the regulator of they thought they saw something that shouldn't be happening.

I'm not saying it WILL happen, just that it's being considered in some quarters.

Your not a communist are you?

 

[delilah]

you do know stoke have just scored?

now look what you've gone and done. Muppet.

 

[spin cycle]

now look what you've gone and done. Muppet.

oops

 

[farmerm]

Legislation is interpreted by the Courts. If you are not happy with the interpretation of the law by a public body you have the option to carry on until they prosecute you if they dare. Case law determines the interpretation of legislation. Unless there is a precedent that can be quoted the case will be determined ultimately by the courts. If the EA decide they want to interpret something differently that will either be because there is new legislation in which case the courts will again decide or there might be a policy change from DEFRA which has no basis in legislation but more of a try on.

essentially if you want to try it on and ignore rules that dont appear to be enforceable through legislation and become the test case you will need deep pockets, you will run out of cash for legal fees long before the EA or whoever...

 

[delilah]

oops

and you can have your man Vrancic back, just missed a penalty ffs.