Thoughts on loosing BPS and replacing with ELMS?

[farmerm]

In some respects it would be good to keep income streams separate.
Different bank accounts. Different tax accounts. Different records for labour use.
Too many of us don't see the clear picture.
Those who own land are often making the profit from owning the land rather than "farming".

But in some other respects it can be less "Taxing" when the income streams are accounted as one business at least whilst the farming part is the larger part of the business.. Accounts for efficient taxation vs accounts for business analysis can be rather different......

 

[primmiemoo]

But in some other respects it can be less "Taxing" when the income streams are accounted as one business at least whilst the farming part is the larger part of the business.. Accounts for efficient taxation vs accounts for business analysis can be rather different......

Our Benchmarker hints there's a good bit of that going on. HMRC will be instructed to look harder, no doubt, now the Treasury is looking for funds.

 

[farmerm]

Our Benchmarker hints there's a good bit of that going on. HMRC will be instructed to look harder, no doubt, now the Treasury is looking for funds.

Tax avoidance is legal and good business sense, it should not be confused with tax evasion that HMRC should clamp down on.

 

[primmiemoo]

Tax avoidance is legal and good business sense, it should not be confused with tax evasion that HMRC should clamp down on.

True, but I can't help thinking that legal loopholes will be scrutinised as well, with a view to closing them.

 

[steveR]

Tax avoidance is legal and good business sense, it should not be confused with tax evasion that HMRC should clamp down on.

AS my late Father, an Accountant specialising in farm businesses for 45+ years, always told me...

 

[Clive]

What are people’s thoughts and what are you doing to get ready for the change

the thread title

any one thinking ELMS will replace BPS is delusional - it may cover a small % of it at best

Time to learn to farm without subs for many

 

[Courier]

the thread title

any one thinking ELMS will replace BPS is delusional - it may cover a small % of it at best

Time to learn to farm without subs for many

Looking more and more like taking the government's shilling pennies will be more trouble than it's worth....

 

[Old Tup]

Looking more and more like taking the government's shilling pennies will be more trouble than it's worth....

Exactly what ELMS has been designed to do…..

 

[Old Tup]

the thread title

any one thinking ELMS will replace BPS is delusional - it may cover a small % of it at best

Time to learn to farm without subs for many

Difficult situation for a three or four hundred acre tenanted family farm…
Mixed farming….Livestock and a bit of Grain largely for the Livestock etc.
Two generations involved, with another floating around, either Elderly Grandparents or Young Children.
Active Land Agent has the rent Sky high…Plenty of neighbours willing to pay more than that Blah Blah Blah etc etc….next rent review a few years down the line.
Whats the options?

 

[delilah]

Difficult situation for a three or four hundred acre tenanted family farm…
Mixed farming….Livestock and a bit of Grain largely for the Livestock etc.
Two generations involved, with another floating around, either Elderly Grandparents or Young Children.
Active Land Agent has the rent Sky high…Plenty of neighbours willing to pay more than that etc etc….next rent review a few years down the line.
Whats the options?

A typical farm then. Lets assume 100 Ha of it is PP. £220/Ha SFI on the first 40 Ha. £22/Ha on the next 60 Ha. Total area payment of £10,120. Throw in some hedges, water margins etc. Say £12k/yr. Sorted.

 

[Clive]

Difficult situation for a three or four hundred acre tenanted family farm…
Mixed farming….Livestock and a bit of Grain largely for the Livestock etc.
Two generations involved, with another floating around, either Elderly Grandparents or Young Children.
Active Land Agent has the rent Sky high…Plenty of neighbours willing to pay more than that Blah Blah Blah etc etc….next rent review a few years down the line.
Whats the options?

family farm better set for survival than anyone imo with low overheads and bps not a massive % of income

big, high cost, highly geared FBT / contract farm businesses at far great risk imo bps represents a big % of such business turnover

 

[Northern territory]

People talk of diversification but won’t losing bps put more pressure on the profits of these enterprises?

 

[Wombat]

Looking more and more like taking the government's shilling pennies will be more trouble than it's worth....

Yup, the thing i don;t think they have realised is the extra stuff the BPS gets spent on, i was chatting to a the footpath officer the other day as i wanted to put some chalk on a farm track thats also a footpath as it benefitted both of us and wanted them to confirm they were ok with it. I will leave it up to the ROW team to do it once BPS is gone as its their responsibility, there so many examples of this that they will loose control over unless they offer commercial rates of money.

 

[Courier]

family farm better set for survival than anyone imo with low overheads and bps not a massive % of income

big, high cost, highly geared FBT / contract farm businesses at far great risk imo bps represents a big % of such business turnover

“Family farm survival” means more self inflicted slave labour similar to another post on this forum.

 

[Grassman]

I remember @Bossfarmer some time ago saying that rents would go up after the subsidy reduced as everyone would be chasing more land to spread costs over.
I wonder which way it will go.
For me I will definitely be paying less rent or not bothering!

 

[Fat hen]

Yep and when Wheat is grossing £500 an acre…?

It’s one thing having the high prices, but the weather can soon p@ss on that fire. 2 years in the last 5 have been appalling here in Lincs. Get a few yrs like that in a row and it’s dire with no financial support

 

[Bossfarmer]

The £80 an acre was set in the late nineties and was equivalent to 1.25 tones of wheat. It’s now 25 years later and the government has printed more money in the last year than it has in the entire history of money and it’s equivalent to less than a 1/3 tonne of wheat. Inflation has made the farmers dole meaningless.

out of interest are you on heavy yielding land?

 

[Bossfarmer]

WATS EVERY1 MOANING ABOUT....? MOST FARMERS VOTED BREXIT - Wat did they think was going to happen............?
5 yrs on I still think its laughable how farmers voted - the saying that always crops up about turkeys voting 4 Xmas...... The EU was far from perfect but if nothing else it protected us from our own government, now we have to deal with the consequences of our actions come 2024.

yes incidently i did a thread on how turkeys were voting for xmas at the time, westminster were never going to support farming, not enough votes in ag

 

[farmerm]

out of interest are you on heavy yielding land?

about 5 times more than we did in harvest 2020 I think!

 

[Bossfarmer]

I remember @Bossfarmer some time ago saying that rents would go up after the subsidy reduced as everyone would be chasing more land to spread costs over.
I wonder which way it will go.
For me I will definitely be paying less rent or not bothering!

rents are already going up thanks to the wheat and livestock prices,

you can quote me on this in 5 years time the perfect storm is coming.....mabye not this year but in the next few we will see wheat/livestock prices drop away back and farmers will be left with sky high inputs/rents/wage bills and for the first time no support, this is when a mass exodus will occur