Time for subsidies to go.

[glasshouse]

We

There's no guarantee that the large farmer gets their marketing right! There are plenty of big farmers in grain pools. Nearly as many as smaller ones in fact, based on being at Openfield & CMG meetings over the years - most admitted to be wrong as often as they were right, so why worry about it & sub the job out. Being big doesn't necessarily get you better input prices either. I buy for 3600 acres and didn't any better prices until I joined a buying group where every member no matter how big or small they are get the same price - just like the grain pool. Granted, justifying tech gear is easier when you have more acres to spread it over e.g. £8k on autosteer is easier on 3000 ac than 300 ac. We're not talking £100/acre here - Red Tractor membership costs pence more per acre on a small unit than it does a big one for example. The buying group membership fees are pence per acre.

On the flip side, start paying foremen, unit managers, secretaries etc and the cost base starts to build disproportionally. You still have to get the attention to detail and do the right deal at the right time. Some of the best farmers I know have 900 - 1800 acres. They know every inch of their ground yet make enough time to get off the farm occasionally & learn more. I know of guys running 5000 acres where the attention to detail has gone totally & they are just obsessed with getting bigger at all costs whilst the quality of work suffers. Of course every farm is different. An owner occupier on 500 acres well managed can make more than the guy running twice that on silly rents, working themselves into the ground with a burning desire for yet more work.

well said

 

[Bossfarmer]

There's no guarantee that the large farmer gets their marketing right! There are plenty of big farmers in grain pools. Nearly as many as smaller ones in fact, based on being at Openfield & CMG meetings over the years - most admitted to be wrong as often as they were right, so why worry about it & sub the job out. Being big doesn't necessarily get you better input prices either. I buy for 3600 acres and didn't any better prices until I joined a buying group where every member no matter how big or small they are get the same price - just like the grain pool. Granted, justifying tech gear is easier when you have more acres to spread it over e.g. £8k on autosteer is easier on 3000 ac than 300 ac. We're not talking £100/acre here - Red Tractor membership costs pence more per acre on a small unit than it does a big one for example. The buying group membership fees are pence per acre.

On the flip side, start paying foremen, unit managers, secretaries etc and the cost base starts to build disproportionally. You still have to get the attention to detail and do the right deal at the right time. Some of the best farmers I know have 900 - 1800 acres. They know every inch of their ground yet make enough time to get off the farm occasionally & learn more. I know of guys running 5000 acres where the attention to detail has gone totally & they are just obsessed with getting bigger at all costs whilst the quality of work suffers. Of course every farm is different. An owner occupier on 500 acres well managed can make more than the guy running twice that on silly rents, working themselves into the ground with a burning desire for yet more work.

What youve said is true sometime smaller farmers can make a better job BUT i did stress the big operations which have got their attention to detail and one man stretched over more acres i am aware some bigger outfits are run inefficiently but many are improving and now making an excellent job, these big units which are doing it right will be the ones to progress, i also noticed you compared an owner occupier to a big rented outfit why? I was comparing large well run outfits to the traditional sized tenant

 

[Osca]

The problem is with big units mind to my is that they have to depend too much on an effective off-farm infrastructure; they have to have a buyer capable of taking and moving huge amounts of one product and these people are also ruthless in their bottom-line efficiency and merciless in forgetting your needs if there is a glut of this or the supermarket prefers that. I think a big specialist grower is probably a lot more vulnerable to change and outside influences than a small mixed farm. I also wonder whether, despite economies of scale, the success of big farms in this country is largely an artificial thing, bolstered by the illogical way payments are made. We don't have an ideal landscape for prairies, either; too trappy. (If that were not the case I would never have got my little bit of land which is too steep to suit modern mechanised farming.)

 

[Brisel]

What youve said is true sometime smaller farmers can make a better job BUT i did stress the big operations which have got their attention to detail and one man stretched over more acres i am aware some bigger outfits are run inefficiently but many are improving and now making an excellent job, these big units which are doing it right will be the ones to progress, i also noticed you compared an owner occupier to a big rented outfit why? I was comparing large well run outfits to the traditional sized tenant

Without getting into what a tenant is (that discussion has been done), I wanted to make the point that what looks like a big unit might not be the money spinner it appears to be.

 

[glasshouse]

What youve said is true sometime smaller farmers can make a better job BUT i did stress the big operations which have got their attention to detail and one man stretched over more acres i am aware some bigger outfits are run inefficiently but many are improving and now making an excellent job, these big units which are doing it right will be the ones to progress, i also noticed you compared an owner occupier to a big rented outfit why? I was comparing large well run outfits to the traditional sized tenant

Let me guess, you are fresh out of cirencester or RICS and have swallowed all the propaganda whole?

 

[Bossfarmer]

no im not, don't get me wrong some large units overspend on machinery and staff but the ones that have large scale and do it right will out perform any traditional farm, take a 300 acre grain farmer and a 2000 acre farmer, both normally have combine, grain drill, sprayer, dryer etc etc to pay for, one is spreading it over 300 acres the other 2000 who has the lower fixed cost per acre? it is possible (with seasonal/part time labour also) for one man to do 2000 acres now he is his own manager and worker, spread this model up to 20000 acres and you have 10 efficient units with a strong margin and no problem covering rent

 

[More to life]

no im not, don't get me wrong some large units overspend on machinery and staff but the ones that have large scale and do it right will out perform any traditional farm, take a 300 acre grain farmer and a 2000 acre farmer, both normally have combine, grain drill, sprayer, dryer etc etc to pay for, one is spreading it over 300 acres the other 2000 who has the lower fixed cost per acre? it is possible (with seasonal/part time labour also) for one man to do 2000 acres now he is his own manager and worker, spread this model up to 20000 acres and you have 10 efficient units with a strong margin and no problem covering rent

Mate the 300a mans kit cost £100000 if he has any 2000a £700000+ so it's the same only the 300a is a part time job,scale come along way behind management in terms of efficiency.

 

[Bossfarmer]

so if you got offered another couple hundred acres you wouldn't take it? I disagree with 700000, id say machinery cost will be about 3 times that of the 300 acres man theres no need to go mad buying fendts and lexions

 

[turbo]

It all comes down to management,a 300 acre farm the one man can do everything but one man could never do all the work and management on 2000 acre admit idly the 300 acre man could easily cope with some more but the big one would struggle with timelynes you carnt be spraying,drilling & loading corn all at the same time.

 

[glasshouse]

you are far better off owning and farming 300ac than renting 3000 ac
its only the shiny toys that attract the contract farmers.
like a magpie collects beads

 

[glasshouse]

Here is what happened the last time cheap imports flooded in

 

[Bossfarmer]

you are far better off owning and farming 300ac than renting 3000 ac
its only the shiny toys that attract the contract farmers.
like a magpie collects beads

yes and your better to own 3000 acres than 300, you cant compare owned with rented a fairer comparison would be rent 300 or rent 3000

 

[More to life]

you are far better off owning and farming 300ac than renting 3000 ac
its only the shiny toys that attract the contract farmers.
like a magpie collects beads

Depends if it comes with a £3m mortgage,you can waste days talking to boss farmer about tenants

 

[glasshouse]

Depends if it comes with a £3m mortgage,you can waste days talking to boss farmer about tenants

Yes, he is a landlord troll

 

[More to life]

Yes, he is a landlord troll

Na being a troll requires cunning

 

[Farma Parma]

easy peasey to make a living on bought n paid for 300ac for the hell of it against ni on impossble profits on a rented 300ac farm atm
I have nearly 600ac & its making nowt. It has in the past tho & thats on cheaper AHA rents over easily 3figured FBT's

 

[Bossfarmer]

Yes, he is a landlord troll

Thats ridiculous i rent fields for grazing and pay rent

 

[Osca]

Here is what happened the last time cheap imports flooded in

That article is mostly about the distress of landlords rather than farmers, isn't it - I could see under those circumstances that a peppercorn rent might be better than letting the land go wild - but I suppose as someone else pointed out tenants have more rights nowdays and modern machinery makes reclamation easier so letting is more of a problem and waiting is less.

What I don't see is why people undertake to rent when they dislike landlords so much. You don't have to farm; it isn't like renting a flat, say, where you have to have to have a roof over your head and must rent if you can't buy. Wouldn't unhappy tenants be better earning money in some other job and trying to buy odd acres when they can, to satisfy their farming urges?

I also don't see why Bossfarmer keeps getting it in the neck. He earned his land and the right to his land by hard work; he has followed a policy of expansion as the best way to survive and prosper. That is his business model - it has big advantages and is capable of making big profits but IMO big and specialised is also quite vulnerable.

I find it really interesting to see how someone way, way out of my league thinks and conducts business - it requires a whole different mindset yet it is part of the same pattern of farming of which we're all a part. I like bossfarmer's posts and questions and I just hope he isn't put off by all the needless sh!t thrown at him by those who have a chip on their shoulder about the amount of land he owns.

 

[Brisel]

Glasshouse has reason to dislike landlords and agents, having been screwed over by them.

 

[7610 super q]

Anyroad up.....

Subs were going to end either way.

So... what are peoples plans to cope without them ?

Me ? I lost mine in 2005 after more EU / WAG meddling. I sold 3/4 of the farm....and have embraced peasant farming ever since.

Anybody going to take such drastic action and scale back ? Diversify ? But into what ?
Or will you do the opposite , and take on more land...