Time for subsidies to go.

[Osca]

Glasshouse has reason to dislike landlords and agents, having been screwed over by them.

Well that doesn't make every landlord bad, does it. And it highlights the question - why rent if you can't abide landlords?

 

[Osca]

Anyroad up.....

Subs were going to end either way.

So... what are peoples plans to cope without them ?

Me ? I lost mine in 2005 after more EU / WAG meddling. I sold 3/4 of the farm....and have embraced peasant farming ever since.

Anybody going to take such drastic action and scale back ? Diversify ? But into what ?
Or will you do the opposite , and take on more land...

That was a brave move. Are you happier for it?

Peasant farmer just about describes me, too. Well. peasant, at any rate.

 

[glasshouse]

That article is mostly about the distress of landlords rather than farmers, isn't it - I could see under those circumstances that a peppercorn rent might be better than letting the land go wild - but I suppose as someone else pointed out tenants have more rights nowdays and modern machinery makes reclamation easier so letting is more of a problem and waiting is less.

What I don't see is why people undertake to rent when they dislike landlords so much. You don't have to farm; it isn't like renting a flat, say, where you have to have to have a roof over your head and must rent if you can't buy. Wouldn't unhappy tenants be better earning money in some other job and trying to buy odd acres when they can, to satisfy their farming urges?

I also don't see why Bossfarmer keeps getting it in the neck. He earned his land and the right to his land by hard work; he has followed a policy of expansion as the best way to survive and prosper. That is his business model - it has big advantages and is capable of making big profits but IMO big and specialised is also quite vulnerable.

I find it really interesting to see how someone way, way out of my league thinks and conducts business - it requires a whole different mindset yet it is part of the same pattern of farming of which we're all a part. I like bossfarmer's posts and questions and I just hope he isn't put off by all the needless sh!t thrown at him by those who have a chip on their shoulder about the amount of land he owns.

i have no idea how much land he owns, nor do i care.
People who have been left a farm like him tend to look down their nose at those who rent.
You will find that people who rent a farm to start their own business as i did actually like landlords, as i did. I even used to vote tory, but 20 yrs of bitter experience, duplicity verging on fraud, and being treated like dirt after investing a fortune have led me to change my mind.

 

[glasshouse]

Well that doesn't make every landlord bad, does it. And it highlights the question - why rent if you can't abide landlords?

That is remarkably stupid, a bit like saying why drive if you dont like traffic cops.

 

[glasshouse]

That article is mostly about the distress of landlords rather than farmers, isn't it - I could see under those circumstances that a peppercorn rent might be better than letting the land go wild - but I suppose as someone else pointed out tenants have more rights nowdays and modern machinery makes reclamation easier so letting is more of a problem and waiting is less.

What I don't see is why people undertake to rent when they dislike landlords so much. You don't have to farm; it isn't like renting a flat, say, where you have to have to have a roof over your head and must rent if you can't buy. Wouldn't unhappy tenants be better earning money in some other job and trying to buy odd acres when they can, to satisfy their farming urges?

I also don't see why Bossfarmer keeps getting it in the neck. He earned his land and the right to his land by hard work; he has followed a policy of expansion as the best way to survive and prosper. That is his business model - it has big advantages and is capable of making big profits but IMO big and specialised is also quite vulnerable.

I find it really interesting to see how someone way, way out of my league thinks and conducts business - it requires a whole different mindset yet it is part of the same pattern of farming of which we're all a part. I like bossfarmer's posts and questions and I just hope he isn't put off by all the needless sh!t thrown at him by those who have a chip on their shoulder about the amount of land he owns.

What distress were the landlords under? They hadnt lost their home and most of their capital.
The tenants poured capital into paying unpayable rents until the money ran out, then they had to leave.
And funnily enough, there was a shortage of new farmers to take the land on, as they had witnessed the fate of the predecessors.

 

[unlacedgecko]

The tenants poured capital into paying unpayable rents until the money ran out, then they had to leave.

seems a bit of a silly thing to do...

 

[glasshouse]

seems a bit of a silly thing to do...

what choice did they have? emigrate or the workhouse?

 

[glasshouse]

seems a bit of a silly thing to do...

Have you never ridden out a bad year or two in the hope that things will come right?

 

[sherg]

Anyroad up.....

Subs were going to end either way.

So... what are peoples plans to cope without them ?

Me ? I lost mine in 2005 after more EU / WAG meddling. I sold 3/4 of the farm....and have embraced peasant farming ever since.

Anybody going to take such drastic action and scale back ? Diversify ? But into what ?
Or will you do the opposite , and take on more land...

Subs were on the way out or going to reduce at any road who knows now what will happen although I doubt there's going to be much in the way of support though unless they want people to keep in employment at defra
Not really sure what the plan is at the moment we should be alright without the subs those with the biggest cheques will probably fall harder than the small man, hopefully it will throw up more opportunities for the smaller farmer who in the past has been out gunned by those with a big sfp cheque to fall back on

 

[unlacedgecko]

Have you never ridden out a bad year or two in the hope that things will come right?

Surely it is better to reach the decision point before the total depletion of capital.

Re choices, what did they do once the capital was gone? Maybe taking that course of action with some money would have made life more pleasant?

Do you still have a bee in your bonnet over the Highland Clearances?

 

[glasshouse]

Surely it is better to reach the decision point before the total depletion of capital.

Re choices, what did they do once the capital was gone? Maybe taking that course of action with some money would have made life more pleasant?

Do you still have a bee in your bonnet over the Highland Clearances?

You seem to be under the illusion that tenants had free choices.
Some would have left with money there is no doubt, but others who had some years to run in their lease were legally bound to pay the rent whether they could afford it or not.
I have documents relating to a man who went bust in yr 3 of a nineteen yr lease. He was sued for 16yrs of future rent.

 

[glasshouse]

i think fbt tenancies bind the tenant to pay rent even if he leaves before term.

 

[Chimera]

Subs were on the way out or going to reduce at any road who knows now what will happen although I doubt there's going to be much in the way of support though unless they want people to keep in employment at defra
Not really sure what the plan is at the moment we should be alright without the subs those with the biggest cheques will probably fall harder than the small man, hopefully it will throw up more opportunities for the smaller farmer who in the past has been out gunned by those with a big sfp cheque to fall back on

If I remember rightly, there was hell to pay for the RPA's handling of last years sub payment, with the smaller and medium farmers being quite vociferous about the matter. Yet by today many people on here are heralding the demise of subs as the saviour of the small farmer. I can't quite figure this out. Rest assured with less subs I for one will be looking to streamline my business, and expand whenever it is possible and viable.

I know of plenty of AHA tenants on VERY reasonable rents, who employ no staff, and lead quite a miserly existence. Please tell me how they will benefit?

 

[glasshouse]

If I remember rightly, there was hell to pay for the RPA's handling of last years sub payment, with the smaller and medium farmers being quite vociferous about the matter. Yet by today many people on here are heralding the demise of subs as the saviour of the small farmer. I can't quite figure this out. Rest assured with less subs I for one will be looking to streamline my business, and expand whenever it is possible and viable.

I know of plenty of AHA tenants on VERY reasonable rents, who employ no staff, and lead quite a miserly existence. Please tell me how they will benefit?

they obviously dont need the payment

 

[Chimera]

they obviously dont need the payment

But they can't pay their bills till december every year, and complain bitterly that it doesn't pay.

 

[FonterraFarmer]

what choice did they have? emigrate or the workhouse?

Wasn't always "emigrate" either, more like assisted passage , one way and don't come back!

 

[onthehoof]

Europe will continue with subsidies because the French farmers will make sure of it and the majority of French citizens support their farmers.
NZ farmers can cope without subsidies because they can export 90% of what they produce on a more or less free market.
US farmers will always be supported in one way or another by their Government.
None of the above applies to British farmers, we import more than we export, joe public would rather buy cheap than buy British, and I can't remember the last time we had a decent Minister of Agriculture except Jim Paice and they soon got rid of him, we also may not have access to the single market.
Government coffers are going to be even emptier than they are now and Ministers would rather spend our Subs on the NHS as it wins more votes.
So basically subsidies are doomed and possibly a good many farmers too, but with a good climate, careful planning and a bit of ingenuity most can survive.

 

[sherg]

If you take inflation into account we're hardly getting any subs compared to what we were, in the past it has looked like a lot of big farmers have spent their sfp on trying to rent more ground.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Subs were on the way out or going to reduce at any road who knows now what will happen although I doubt there's going to be much in the way of support though unless they want people to keep in employment at defra
Not really sure what the plan is at the moment we should be alright without the subs those with the biggest cheques will probably fall harder than the small man, hopefully it will throw up more opportunities for the smaller farmer who in the past has been out gunned by those with a big sfp cheque to fall back on

you are mistaken as I myself know if rents dropped id go out and rent much more to spread my costs that's my plan if subs go, increase cow numbers and acres of grain

 

[Bossfarmer]

and im not even that big, the idea that subs disappearing will be good for the small farmer is crazy, what do you think the big farms getting big subs will do? capitalise on cheaper rents and expand as much as they can, they're not just going to pack up & leave, this in turn means the rent wont drop THAT much