Today in Parliament

[The Agrarian]

Just reviewing the news today regarding the Northern Ireland bill to bring forward same sex marriage and abortion if there's no assembly by October.

Gavin Robinson was quoted as saying that if the assembly was running tomorrow, the DUP wouldn't have the numbers to stop it anyway. But, on a technical note, am I right to think they would be able to block with the petition of concern? @nivilla1982 I suspect you will know.

One of the conditions is that it can be reversed by the assembly in the future. Is it the case therefore that the law change will be here to stay once brought in, as it will effectively be a way of bypassing the petition of concern?

Another thought. Is it possible that this is a handy way out of the situation for the DUP, who would have to be seen to use the petition of concern in the assembly, but can instead blame it on MPs?

 

[nivilla1982]

30 signatures are required to enact the petition of concern, at present the DUP Assembly team (28) cannot unilaterally enact the process, they would need 2 additional signatures from either Jim Allister or socially conservative members from the UUP.
As it stands the main parties and others have made suggestions that they either want the petition of concern possess scrapped or reformed

 

[The Agrarian]

Yes. The point I was making is that if abortion and same sex marriage are brought in before a resumption of the assembly, then I assume the P O C cannot be used retrospectively to disannul this legislation?

 

[nivilla1982]

Yes. The point I was making is that if abortion and same sex marriage are brought in before a resumption of the assembly, then I assume the P O C cannot be used retrospectively to disannul this legislation?

A future assembly would/if have to bring forward legislation on the issue to change the legislation from Westminster. (Highly unlikely there would be enough MLAs to support re-banning it) Petitions of Concern at present only apply to legislation etc from the Assembly.

Extract from Irish News about reform of the process
https://www.irishnews.com/news/2018...ormont-s-petition-of-concern-debate--1250629/
Petition of concern vs council call-in

Petition of concern:

A valid PoC requires the signatures of 30 MLAs. If these are secured, an assembly vote can then only pass if supported by 60 per cent of MLAs voting, including at least 40 per cent of each of the nationalist and unionist designations present and voting.

Call-in:

A valid call-in requires the support of 15 per cent of councillors. They can request a call-in if they feel a decision did not properly consider the relevant facts and issues; or the decision would disproportionately and adversely affect any section of the inhabitants of the district. A lawyer is then asked to examine the decision to determine whether it should be reconsidered.

 

[nivilla1982]

In a sense Westminster stepping probably helps the DUP, they can no longer be accused of blocking the issue and can point to Westminster to blame with their traditional supporters.

 

[The Agrarian]

Aye that's also what I was thinking. A handy enough way out of it. Guarantees no stormont before October so they can let Westminster deal with it. For that matter, I can honestly envisage the place lying empty for years. Sinn Fein in particular have no desire to take any unpopular decisions, like trimming budgets and introducing water charges. Far better to blame it on the nasty Brits at Westminster. I think the DUP are more willing to make decisions, but will be content to sit it out until this one is dealt with for them.

 

[Danllan]

30 signatures are required to enact the petition of concern, at present the DUP Assembly team (28) cannot unilaterally enact the process, they would need 2 additional signatures from either Jim Allister or socially conservative* members from the UUP.
As it stands the main parties and others have made suggestions that they either want the petition of concern possess scrapped or reformed

It's not my province - no pun intended, much - but that aside... most people I know in NI don't like or dislike 'gayness' any more than most on the mainland, which is to say that some are not bothered in the least, some (like me) find it revolting but don't think it's any of our business, and some think it is an affront to God / Nature and should be banned outright. The latter group being in a rather small minority over here and, in my experience, a slightly larger minority in NI. If I'm right in this, and I think but don't know that I am, surely it will be a good thing to get over and done with, and most people** won't be up in arms about it, will they?

*The euphemism you've chosen is rather amusing.

**When I write 'people' I don't include elected politicians or ordained religionists.

 

[Boohoo]

So health and education are falling apart, every night there is something on the news that can't be resolved because we've no devolved government and we've got MPs who think that reforming the laws on abortion and same sex marriage are priorities. There's no hope. Whatever your views are on the subjects there are much bigger problems in our society that affect the many not the few.

 

[The Agrarian]

It's not my province - no pun intended, much - but that aside... most people I know in NI don't like or dislike 'gayness' any more than most on the mainland, which is to say that some are not bothered in the least, some (like me) find it revolting but don't think it's any of our business, and some think it is an affront to God / Nature and should be banned outright. The latter group being in a rather small minority over here and, in my experience, a slightly larger minority in NI. If I'm right in this, and I think but don't know that I am, surely it will be a good thing to get over and done with, and most people** won't be up in arms about it, will they?

*The euphemism you've chosen is rather amusing.

**When I write 'people' I don't include elected politicians or ordained religionists.

There goes the underlining machine again.

I posted the question purely on a technical matter of procedure, but it's not unsurprising that the subject itself would be discussed by the seventh post.

In answer to your question - I think that most folks will not be up in arms about it. But that moreso reflects the fact that, generally, most folks dont get up in arms about things these days, whether they approve or not.

 

[rob1]

Dont follow NI politics but wouldnt the Catholic side be more anti gay marriage and abortion than than protestant side ? Or have they become more liberal these days

 

[Boohoo]

Dont follow NI politics but wouldnt the Catholic side be more anti gay marriage and abortion than than protestant side ? Or have they become more liberal these days

Not sure about the people themselves but it's the catholic politicians who have been pushing for change and the protestant politicians who don't want change.

 

[Hindsight]

Dont follow NI politics but wouldnt the Catholic side be more anti gay marriage and abortion than than protestant side ? Or have they become more liberal these days

I thought the Catholics have moved into the current century, it is the DUP still lurking somewhere in the 18th Century!! (Said tongue in cheek before I offend anyone) After all the Irish Republic has dealt with these issues in recent years. Fascinating to watch. Been following Stella Creasey's campaign for past few months.

 

[baabaa]

I thought the Catholics have moved into the current century, it is the DUP still lurking somewhere in the 18th Century!! (Said tongue in cheek before I offend anyone) After all the Irish Republic has dealt with these issues in recent years. Fascinating to watch. Been following Stella Creasey's campaign for past few months.

please pay attention those at the back of the plane
https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2...unce-undemocratic-attempt-to-expand-abortion/

 

[The Agrarian]

There's a strange divergence between politics and religion on the Catholic side, and lots of contradictions. Sinn Fein, the biggest pro-ireland party, is very to the left. They are all about rights, what everyone is entitled to, particularly so if it's at the expense of the British, and nothing about living up to responsibility. Clashing with that is the Catholic Church, which understandably is more about responsibility than rights. As is any strain of Christianity - the example of the life of Jesus is to live on the principle of service and giving, rather than taking. Coupled with that is their very Hardline view on same sex and abortion, which Sinn Fein are at the opposite end of.

The difference between the republic and Northern Ireland is that it has gradually become less Catholic over the decades, hence the law changes down there. In Northern Ireland, however, the Catholic Church is still seen by much of the population as part of their Irish identity and one of the things that binds them together in their struggle against the Imperial oppressor . So it's a strange conflict. Sinn Fein gets the votes because of their Republican credentials, while sitting very uncomfortably with many Catholic people's values. The most strongly anti-abortion people I know are Roman Catholic. Despite the impression you get from the DUP, the general Protestant population would hold more liberal views on same sex relationships and abortion. And has always been the way. Protestants had contraception and divorce a long time before Roman Catholics.

 

[nivilla1982]

In a sense if you a socially conservative roman catholic there isn't really a political party on the nationalist spectrum to reflect that view apart from the newly formed Antou party formed by a ex PSF TD down south who fell out with them over the issue of abortion.

 

[nivilla1982]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48934045
Same-sex marriage and abortion votes breach NI devolution, says DUP

 

[Hindsight]

Thank you for the replies explaining your views on the politics of this issue. Listening to Stella Creasey last night on Newsnight, and in previous interviews, her perspective as a non Northern Ireland MP is the issue of UK wide legislation being available to and in support of the whole of UK, and as a woman in this particular issue the subset of equal rights for all women in the UK, where she considers women in Northern Ireland have rights denied to them that women in rest of UK have. So an issue of personal human rights. Of course the associated issue allied to the topic is the rights of the unborn. And that makes for much complications. An interesting topic that I have followed since it reared up a few months ago. And being mirrored in the USA now with the pro-lifers gaining strength politically under a conservative President Trump providing support from Capitol Hill.

Many thanks again, I am very insular in rural Lincolnshire.

 

[nivilla1982]

A slight irony in the matter is that Stella Creasey's own party despite their apparent concern that all parts of the UK are treated the same refuses to stand in elections this part of the country so in effect Labour members in NI are in effect treated differently than members on the mainland.

 

[thewalrus]

The only way to get anything done in NI is too leave it to someone else!

 

[Boohoo]

The only way to get anything done in NI is too leave it to someone else!

If only those people would get their priorities right and tackle the real issues rather than trying to make a name for themselves with fringe issues. Undermining Stormont doesn't do anyone any good, they should either be doing everything they can to get it up and running again or scrapping it and bringing in direct rule.