UK Farm Support......THE POLL!!

[Cowabunga]

Originally I think it was more to with a cheap food policy

Except that it isn't just taxed lower for agriculture. Even those tarmacking gangs you see at this time of year run much of their equipment on red, because they are deemed to be working 'on site' when between the road works signs. Obviously the trucks that haul the machinery and material to the site all run on white, but the planers, rollers, Barber Greens and whatnot all run on red. They would certainly NOT claim that they were subsidised. Same for building sites everywhere, where the site machinery is run on red. Domestic housebuilders are NOT subsidised by using lower duty rate fuel any more than farmers are. The duty is applied appropriate to the use to which the fuel is put as mandated by Parliament. Same as different rates of income tax, which I previously used to illustrate the point and is still the simplest way of explaining and deradicalising people of this spurious notion.

 

[digger64]

Except that it isn't just taxed lower for agriculture. Even those tarmacking gangs you see at this time of year run much of their equipment on red, because they are deemed to be working 'on site' when between the road works signs. Obviously the trucks that haul the machinery and material to the site all run on white, but the planers, rollers, Barber Greens and whatnot all run on red. They would certainly NOT claim that they were subsidised. Same for building sites everywhere, where the site machinery is run on red. Domestic housebuilders are NOT subsidised by using lower duty rate fuel any more than farmers are. The duty is applied appropriate to the use to which the fuel is put as mandated by Parliament. Same as different rates of income tax, which I previously used to illustrate the point and is still the simplest way of explaining and deradicalising people of this spurious notion.

But domestic homeowners are

 

[Cowabunga]

But domestic homeowners are

No they are not [subsidised]. They pay all the relevant taxes and duties levied. There are some subsidies of course, and the pensioner's cold weather supplement is certainly a subsidy which is directly paid to them and is fully independent of their pension and other social payments that may apply depending on their circumstances.

 

[Pasty]

The grass was greener
The light was brighter
The taste was sweeter
The nights of wonder
With friends surrounded
The dawn mist glowing
The water flowing
The endless river
Forever and ever

 

[ollie989898]

OK. I guess, you have to argue the use of the term 'Horticulture'. I see your point on that one. Maybe a better lawyer would have tied them in knots.

Anyway. On red. I live in a steep valley. I have red in tanks but not white. My 'mule' runs on red. I store pallets of grit salt for the council. So. If I want to spread it I need a vehicle. In parts of March the only thing getting out of here was the mule. Hilux hopeless. But by taking the mule to a filling station and buying white, I am evading tax? If I just say 'Sod it' and jump in and chuck a few bags of grit up the lane (which I obviously didn't do) using red, I am evading tax. So I would never do that. I will just sit at home in the snow reading HMRC papers on use of this and that and do nothing.

What I wish is that these local govt. cretins would just cut people a break and let people get on with good deeds without fear of confiscation or fine as in the story above. They want whacking out.

You are free to drive your mule (I have no clue what taxation class it falls under) on the road howsoever you like, I suspect it is classed as an agricultural machine for all intents and purposes- so anyone trying to stop you for running on red, given that you are a farmer and involved in farming, can't do squat provided you aren't hauling goods around or doing something which is clearly taking the michael.

I don't know your area but I can assure you I've seen people in tractors with snow ploughs running on red diesel.

The spirit and intent of the law as it is written is designed to stop people using red diesel on the road whilst profiting from it, principally hauliers who spend all day every day on the roads, earning money by moving stuff from point A to B and so they are not allowed to use red diesel. Moving your Mule from one field to another down the road with 2 bags of grit or salt or sheep cake or a bale or a dead sheep or your dog, I can't see the issue. Be different if you started hauling cattle to market in it- that is starting to push it a bit too far.

 

[ollie989898]

No off road no problem

I suppose we should ask, what was the bloke driving on the road running on red? Was it a transit tipper with a lawnmower on the back?

 

[unlacedgecko]

You are free to drive your mule (I have no clue what taxation class it falls under) on the road howsoever you like, I suspect it is classed as an agricultural machine for all intents and purposes- so anyone trying to stop you for running on red, given that you are a farmer and involved in farming, can't do squat provided you aren't hauling goods around or doing something which is clearly taking the michael.

I don't know your area but I can assure you I've seen people in tractors with snow ploughs running on red diesel.

The spirit and intent of the law as it is written is designed to stop people using red diesel on the road whilst profiting from it, principally hauliers who spend all day every day on the roads, earning money by moving stuff from point A to B and so they are not allowed to use red diesel. Moving your Mule from one field to another down the road with 2 bags of grit or salt or sheep cake or a bale or a dead sheep or your dog, I can't see the issue. Be different if you started hauling cattle to market in it- that is starting to push it a bit too far.

Red can be used to haul cattle to market. As long as they are your cattle and the market is within 100km of base.

 

[digger64]

No they are not [subsidised]. They pay all the relevant taxes and duties levied. There are some subsidies of course, and the pensioner's cold weather supplement is certainly a subsidy which is directly paid to them and is fully independent of their pension and other social payments that may apply depending on their circumstances.

In the past when there was a more direct taxation system on profit or earnings (before politicians realised they could buy votes by reducing these but get the income by putting it on consumed stuff - fuel alcohol vat etc )some things were left tax free or allowable against profit /earnings so as not to be a tax on life -food mortgage interest children's clothes food allowing builders civil engineers etc to use red helped reduce the cost of their product and benefit the whole of society also there is the logistics and cost of enforcing it to think about

 

[Bossfarmer]

if the

14 pages of rubbish that I have no intension of starting to read.

Red.

Is NOT subsidised. It just does not have a large element of road duty applied. It has some, to acknowledge that it is sometimes used on the road, but not much.
To agree that it is subsidised is exactly like arguing that a 20% income tax payer is subsidised compared to a higher rate taxpayer. Logically if you agree that red diesel is subsidised then you must agree that all lower rates of tax are subsidies to whoever they apply.

That's the end of that. Now I can go back to ignoring this thread. Thanks for your consultation request. The invoice is in the post.

if the world was fair EVERYBODY would pay the same tax rate

 

[Henarar]

if the

if the world was fair EVERYBODY would pay the same tax rate

They do

 

[Hilly]

They do

they dont .

 

[unlacedgecko]

if the

if the world was fair EVERYBODY would pay the same tax rate

Life's not fair. Get over it .

 

[Henarar]

they dont .

they do

 

[unlacedgecko]

they do

Sliding scale income tax?

 

[Cowabunga]

they do

No matter how you look at it, they don’t. Your two worded claim, whatever it is meant to convey, will never stand up to scrutiny.

 

[ollie989898]

Was reading on the web regarding this mower lark.

Bournemouth borough council was fined 20K some years back for using red diesel in some of their equipment. Apparently amenity use does not fall under agricultural, horticultural or forestry use.... BUT:

I have a self-propelled mower which I use for grass maintenance on playing fields etc. Can I use red diesel on the public road? 7 Yes, mowing machines can use red diesel at all times

http://apse-archive.org.uk/briefings/09/09-34 Fuel Duty.pdf

 

[Beowulf]

Was reading on the web regarding this mower lark.

Bournemouth borough council was fined 20K some years back for using red diesel in some of their equipment. Apparently amenity use does not fall under agricultural, horticultural or forestry use.... BUT:

I have a self-propelled mower which I use for grass maintenance on playing fields etc. Can I use red diesel on the public road? 7 Yes, mowing machines can use red diesel at all times

http://apse-archive.org.uk/briefings/09/09-34 Fuel Duty.pdf

Were they using a "mowing machine" or a tractor with a mower/topper?

HMRC defines a mowing machine as a machine which is designed and constructed solely for the purpose of mowing, and the mowing equipment must be an integral part of the machine rather than an implement.

 

[stewart]

if the

if the world was fair EVERYBODY would pay the same tax rate

What crap
Differing tax rates are an attempt to make the world fairer. If the world was to be more fair tax rates would not be the same for everyone, it would be preferable to share all the answers land, spliting it equally with everyoine receiving "their share" although how is that fair? Who gets the most productive land and who gets the least productive? And who gets Wales?
The current tax regime takes income from the general tax payer (who can ill afford it) in weekly installments via PAYE and pays some of this via subsidy to farmers (who don't need it and don't deserve it ).

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice you are a comrade of mine"

Life isn't fair. Get over it

 

[Bossfarmer]

What crap
Differing tax rates are an attempt to make the world fairer. If the world was to be more fair tax rates would not be the same for everyone, it would be preferable to share all the answers land, spliting it equally with everyoine receiving "their share" although how is that fair? Who gets the most productive land and who gets the least productive? And who gets Wales?
The current tax regime takes income from the general tax payer (who can ill afford it) in weekly installments via PAYE and pays some of this via subsidy to farmers (who don't need it and don't deserve it ).

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice you are a comrade of mine"

Life isn't fair. Get over it

you cant take assets off people who have bought them thats theft, the same tax for everyone is perfectly fair

 

[Henarar]

No matter how you look at it, they don’t. Your two worded claim, whatever it is meant to convey, will never stand up to scrutiny.

it will