Unliberal undemocratics

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
When I was younger, I felt most aligned to the Liberal party. As they have largely disappeared, the Lib-dem's were the next best thing. I agree with them on most things except the UK's membership which I consider as neither liberal or democratic.
One of the consistent campaigns of the Liberal democrats during their existence is the need for electoral reform as the number of MP's elected from each party does not reflect the share of a party's vote. Suddenly this has become completely irrelevant and however small their share of the vote is, they believe it entitles them to overturn the result of a referendum 33.5 million, should they win.
When asked why they were campaigning against Labour in seats where the conservatives could win, they espoused the need for voters to be given a choice. They have a pact which denies voters a choice in 60 constituencies.
One of the good things about having a referendum was that I felt free to vote Lib-dem again. The way they have conducted themselves makes me doubt whether I will again for some time.
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
The greatest example that I'm aware of , of democracy in action is the founding of the Anti-Federalist league which subsequently became UKIP. After 25 years of campaigning without any violence or intimidation, it achieved its goal of a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU.
Not only that, but it won the argument and won the referendum.

If the lib-dems gain more than 17,410,742 VOTES, then yes, it will be democracy in action.
 
For the first fifty years of my life, I had never even met anyone who would admit to voting Liberal, in fact I can't remember ever having even seen an election poster. So it was a bit of a shock to find that on moving to the English/Welsh border, we had moved to Lib Land!
However, it didn't take long to realise that their oft' repeated mantra of "We don't want to tell anyone what to do" really means " We're not having ANYONE telling us what to do"
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Anyway, I can’t see how you have anything to worry about. Of course, I will vote Lib Dem purely for the revoke pledge but I think Swinson is a hopeless leader and my opinion of her only goes down. I am afraid she will be putting many, many voters off :rolleyes:
See below.

I don’t know if it’s because of my age but every time I see Swinson either being interviewed or debating she reminds me more of a 6th former on an A level project than a serious politician.
Well, I'm not a fan of the LDs anyway, but... I think the more competent and credible political party leaders we have, the better it is for our democracy.

Vince Cable is a bright guy, but he took on the leadership at least a decade after his use-by-date, ditto Campbell, I wouldn't have voted for either of them in any circ's, but they could have been decent leaders for the LDs if they had got there earlier.

I think the party struck very lucky with Ashdown and Clegg, both had some gravitas, intellectual integrity and affability; Kennedy was good at first, but later became a joke. Which brings us on to Farron, irrelevant, and so back to the lovely Ms Swinson...

It is very hard for anyone to picture her in the highest office, and her recent claims that she could be the next PM were patently absurd - and I've a couple of liberal friends who were here last night who said so too. @Mek makes an interesting point, when she is with the public she gives the impression of a student trying to look like she's paying attention to a tutor.

But she will probably - unless she resigns - be there for some time; she was in great part put forward for the job by the party because of her sex, and the last thing it will want is the headline 'LDs bin first female leader...' She may mature into the role to a degree, she may develop some gravitas, but I don't think so, she is nigh on forty and it seems likely her character and traits are set.

So the question is, how long will she be there and who is next? :unsure:


Edit: Just had a thought about that last bit, and have managed to stop laughing so will make the suggestion: the ever self-publicising Layla Moran... (she always looks as though she is saying 'schnitzel')
 
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Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
I think if the Lib Dem’s had managed to get a big name ex liberal Tory (griev, Hammond,Clark) as a leader for this election, it would of given them 20 more seats at least.
Interesting conjecture, I agree, in fact I think that Clarke would probably have got them far more seats than that, maybe double or even more. But these men are Tories, even Monsieur Grieve... and they all disagree with an awful lot of what is basic LD dogma. David Gauke is very close to the LDs on most things, so could have been a possibility, but he is rather oleaginous.

But... when the shy and ever self-effacing Chuka Umunna made tentative soundings about himself being parachuted in as LD leader, he was told to f*ck off, plain and simple - a very wise choice because he annoys far, far more people than he pleases.

Perhaps, for Ken Clarke, they might have gritted their teeth, but he's a Tory.
 
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czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
Interesting conjecture, I agree, in fact I think that Clarke would probably have got them far more seats than that, maybe double or even more. But these men are Tories, even Monsieur Grieve... and they all disagree with an awful lot of what is basic LD dogma. David Gauke is very close to the LDs on most things, so could have been a possibility, but he is rather oleaginous.

But... when the shy and ever self-effacing Chuka Umunna made tentative soundings about himself being parachuted in as LD leader, he was told to f*ck off, plain and simple - a very wise choice because he annoys far, far more people than he pleases.

Perhaps, for Ken Clarke, they might have gritted their teeth, but he's a Tory.


Yes, I agree. Of course the obvious would of been Nick but I am sure he is far better off where he is :rolleyes:
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
In my view, the Lib dem's have always owned the centre ground. The trouble has been that the Conservatives and Labour have been fighting over the centre and have just pinched enough of the Lib Dem's policies to get them the extra votes. This never left enough room/votes for the Lib-dems to gain many seats.
I consider the Conservative/Lib-dem coalition to be one of the best governments in my lifetime.
This is the first election that I can remember where this is a huge chasm between the 2 main parties which should allow the lib dem's to fill their boots.
It is just deeply regrettable to me that they have chosen the stance on brexit which goes against the principles of being liberal and democratic.
If they had a policy of being in favour of remain but would hold a referendum between;
no deal
a deal
remain
with a second preference vote,
I can't see any reason why a good majority of people wouldn't vote for them considering the alternatives.
 

Martin Holden

Member
Grassland Exhibitor
Location
Cheltenham
Anyway, I can’t see how you have anything to worry about. Of course, I will vote Lib Dem purely for the revoke pledge but I think Swinson is a hopeless leader and my opinion of her only goes down. I am afraid she will be putting many, many voters off :rolleyes:
Agreed. Nothing personal but she is not party leader material and would never come across as a stateswoman unfortunately. We live in a marginal Tory seat (2000 majority) with around 50,000 votes in total at the last election. It was an LD seat in Paddys’ time. Think we are headed for a Tory minor majority as Corbyns dream of an equal society and spend spend spend will actually scare lots of folk even Labour voters. Visions of the unions having regained powers- ?
 

arcobob

Member
Location
Norfolk
I think they missed a trick by not appointing Norman Lamb when they had the opportunity but reading between the lines he was getting very disenchanted with recent LD attitudes.
 

bobk

Member
Location
stafford
I think they missed a trick by not appointing Norman Lamb when they had the opportunity but reading between the lines he was getting very disenchanted with recent LD attitudes.
I think appointing a woman was a good move , a real vote catcher , however the problems start when she opens her mouth
 

br jones

Member
Frankly turning into a dilemma.
Swinson is now so poor that I am really struggling to give her my vote. Certainly only for the revoke. But definitely can’t vote for BJ or Corbin. Would be SNP if it were possible but isn’t in leics. if Swinson gets worse (is that even possible ?) I might just save the stamp :rolleyes:
The choice all roumd isnt upto much to be frank
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
The choice all roumd isnt upto much to be frank

I guess that was why I started the thread...... The Liberal Democrats didn't need any ex-tories or gimics for this election. They just needed to stick to the principles of being liberal and democratic and not be shite. They then should of had an amazing result and become a party of office or opposition for a generation.
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
I guess that was why I started the thread...... The Liberal Democrats didn't need any ex-tories or gimics for this election. They just needed to stick to the principles of being liberal and democratic and not be shite. They then should of had an amazing result and become a party of office or opposition for a generation.


Hmm. To me, the policy isn't the problem its the person.
 

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Five nature-recovery projects spanning 100,000ha launched

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Written by Michelle Martin from Agriland

Image-source-Savills-field-640x360.jpg
Five nature-recovery projects spanning nearly 100,000ha across the West Midlands, Cambridgeshire, the Peak District, Norfolk and Somerset have been announced by the government and Natural England today (Thursday, May 26).

This is the equivalent in size to all 219 current National Reserves.

The aim of the projects is to deliver nature recovery at a landscape scale, helping to tackle biodiversity loss, climate change and improve public health and well-being.

All five projects will make a significant contribution towards the national delivery of the international commitment to protect at least 30% of land and...
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