Using high seed rates to make no-till work on heavier soil?

Bit of an interesting photo. An old variety Benefactor C 1910 (so not really heritage more vintage) with lax leaves has outrun and shaded a BG plant so much it is flowering in desperation. The lack of light will mean that no real vigour or seed return so looks good so far. Others are more tardy and do not seem to.like notill so much but are after sh!t crop of spring oats whereas this is after linseed
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IMG_20170503_201503.jpg
 

Cutlerstom

Member
Arable Farmer
Will happily share more but early days and still very much got L plates on. Pity it takes a year to grow as a reset button would be great!
Main thing that I have learnt is that our idea of traditional wheat farming is more 1950 based than 1590 and that comes as a shock but of course 50s varieties were of the modern improved types with very few heritage lines surviving.
The most interesting thing is that some historic methods recommend two rows 10" apart on beds 6' apart (yes that's right two rows then 6 foot gap) mind boggling but it worked for a while but they misunderstood the nutrient cycle and ran into problems. The fact that the yield from that planting plan surpassed closer rows or broadcast is food for thought.
Have you read Andy Howard's Nuffield report? He made reference to using heritage varieties, sowing with a companion crop in August at ridiculously low rates. Might be right up your street for some references
 
Have you read Andy Howard's Nuffield report? He made reference to using heritage varieties, sowing with a companion crop in August at ridiculously low rates. Might be right up your street for some references

No haven't yet so will give it a gander. Early planting of wheats is not a new idea but some landraces were best in the ground very early following a fallow with multiple ploughings and the best seed rates in hand sown trials was 12 lb/ac (10.5 kg/ha) and that is coming from multiple sources from different continents. One thing that is apparent is that not all sources of N are even but much work left to do before any more on that.
Always bear in mind you will never get modern yields from these varieties not even half but there may be more to life than big piles of low value commodities.
 

York

Member
Location
D-Berlin
why not use this approach: increase the bottom sieve in seed dressing to 3mm. Use same seeding rate & date and you might be surprised how well it goes. I would even lower seeding rate with this type of seed by 25%. We have had >4x more tillers, better emergence etc. when we increased the bottom sieve to 2.8mm.
York-Th.
 
why not use this approach: increase the bottom sieve in seed dressing to 3mm. Use same seeding rate & date and you might be surprised how well it goes. I would even lower seeding rate with this type of seed by 25%. We have had >4x more tillers, better emergence etc. when we increased the bottom sieve to 2.8mm.
York-Th.
Be careful though as modern varieties treat tillers as babies not as a resource and can get too many or late green ones making the sample poor.
 

York

Member
Location
D-Berlin
Be careful though as modern varieties treat tillers as babies not as a resource and can get too many or late green ones making the sample poor.
good point.
Since we use this approach we have much better & even stands in spring. We never overdue the tillers as we aim for 600 head at harvest & don't want to see more than 700 any time in the spring. Every one tiller lost / reduced has cost us water which is our most valuable & limited resource.
York-Th.
 
Just noticed this today but where drill ran out. Blé de Flandres heritage not Flanders for oldies. About 19 plants lost count at 400 tillers. About 20 plants sqm say 25 seeds equals 12.5 kgha.
Not going to crowd anything out yet but this year everything is painfully slow and planted too late in retrospect. Big advantage is where wheat is slow BG is slower and looks like meadow grass.
IMG_20170508_102345973.jpg
 

Andrew K

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Essex
Just noticed this today but where drill ran out. Blé de Flandres heritage not Flanders for oldies. About 19 plants lost count at 400 tillers. About 20 plants sqm say 25 seeds equals 12.5 kgha.
Not going to crowd anything out yet but this year everything is painfully slow and planted too late in retrospect. Big advantage is where wheat is slow BG is slower and looks like meadow grass.
View attachment 513886
I often wonder if sowing thin like that gives you more of a scavenging effect a bit like a hybrid plant ,or is it just better use of avaliable water/nutrition/light by the crop?
 
I often wonder if sowing thin like that gives you more of a scavenging effect a bit like a hybrid plant ,or is it just better use of avaliable water/nutrition/light by the crop?
I think it's just using the available light space and nutrients. Would need very little weed competition to make it impractical but double the seed rate may stand a chance, I am going to try some early planted at silly low rates to see what happens, there's always roundup and spring barley.
 

mo!

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
York
Kicking about some of.my.spring barley this evening and its definitely thinner than id like. Will be looking to up seed rates to 85kg acre next year i think.

WW and barley can stay at 75kg acre. Spring beans at 100kg acre or a bit less.
I drilled our SB at 14st. Will be redrilling at 16st. 250kg/ha.
 
I've decided that fiddling about between say 180kg/ha and 200kg/ha is not enough. Going to try some undressed seed at 280-300kg/ha next autumn as an experiment. Don't have a single crop on the farm which is decided too thick (except OSR). Best barley and best wheat are just about thick enough to my inexpert eye. Will do some ear counts shortly to quantify things better.
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
Best barley and best wheat are just about thick enough to my inexpert eye. Will do some ear counts shortly to quantify things better.

I'd wait until it's in the combine tank until you make a decision and even then I still think it's a wild guess. I've had a crop of Soissons that was quite thick but had lots of very small ears ( sown at 250 kg/ha) that I really didn't think was going to yield but surprised me when it did over 11 t/ha and equally, when canopy management was the buzz word, crops sown at 60 or 70 kg/ha produce large ears and yield well.
 
I'd wait until it's in the combine tank until you make a decision and even then I still think it's a wild guess. I've had a crop of Soissons that was quite thick but had lots of very small ears ( sown at 250 kg/ha) that I really didn't think was going to yield but surprised me when it did over 11 t/ha and equally, when canopy management was the buzz word, crops sown at 60 or 70 kg/ha produce large ears and yield well.

Still dont quite get how the kiwis get their seed rates so low. Maybe planted earlier?
 

britt

Member
BASE UK Member
Kicking about some of.my.spring barley this evening and its definitely thinner than id like. Will be looking to up seed rates to 85kg acre next year i think.

WW and barley can stay at 75kg acre. Spring beans at 100kg acre or a bit less.
That sounds low for S beans. Given the TGW of ours this time I needed 330kg/ha to get the 45-50 seeds / m2 that PGRO recommend.
The seed cleaners said all of the tests that they had done this time had given high TGWs.
 
I've decided that fiddling about between say 180kg/ha and 200kg/ha is not enough. Going to try some undressed seed at 280-300kg/ha next autumn as an experiment. Don't have a single crop on the farm which is decided too thick (except OSR). Best barley and best wheat are just about thick enough to my inexpert eye. Will do some ear counts shortly to quantify things better.
You can drive yourself insane with ear counts and worry over thick/ thin crops. How do you factor in grain size and numbers set or bushel weights. A thick crop can produce disappointing yields and a thin one good. If you get some basics right It's mainly down to weather and that's one thing you have no control over. This year has been helpful to thinner crops here as the cold and dry meant that development was slower and thin crops had time to tiller.
 

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