Very early autumn drilling in BG land

[mikep]

if fields have very bad bg then early drilling is not an option or planting a winter crop is best avoided
my aim is to sort bg before planting a wheat crop
if a field has patches then eliminate bg in the break crop by preventing it from seeding kill out the patches
another option is to plough properly after rape which gives time to produce a seed bed this is only a last resort on properly drained notilled land no good if cultivations have buried bg
the big down side is worm destruction from ploughing although with dry soil after rape the worms are deeper in the ground the problem with ploughing is in a dry year when germination of the wheat can be delayed
in the 1990s we only had enough rain to get wheat to grow in late November one year after ploughing this reduced yield
in an equally dry year min tilled wheat established by the end of September produced top yields

bydv control is an unknown problem here in the last 20 years
it came into prominence in the early 1980s with early September planting every one sprayed after then but in the last 25 years I have seen very little from end of September plantings isthat because every one sprays so there is little about or do we just plant a bit later and the real problem here is only for early September planting

Sorry to say but anything that hasnt been a problem for a while is just waiting. Either neonics will be banned or become inefective as pyrethroids are. Need to farm WITH the pests at a level that is acceptable. Zero tolerance got us into the sh!t in the first place and will only dig us deeper.

 

[yellow belly]

before effective grassweed herbicides spring barley was the main crop on continuous arable fields that could not grow root crops winter wheat was a minor crop

once effective in crop herbicides were available autumn planting of wheat became the norm
without effective grassweed control wheat will take a lower proportion of the rotation late planting is not a profitable option on some land types so mixed farming will be considered

 

[Flat 10]

For the moment with Deter dressing do you really think that BYDV will be a problem @Feldspar ?
Surely not much is going to get by that fb 2 x insecticides? FWIW I think the plan will work. Also with wbarley.

 

[shakerator]

Residuals evaporate with September drilling

Always wondered whether we got Atlantis the wrong way round, I.e. Use contact herb when warm and dry, then residuals when crop established cold and wetter. A bit late now though

 

[Feldspar]

Residuals evaporate with September drilling

Always wondered whether we got Atlantis the wrong way round, I.e. Use contact herb when warm and dry, then residuals when crop established cold and wetter. A bit late now though

So you think it won't work full stop, or would instead need to delay pre-ems (maybe Avadex earlier and then follow with Crystal etc later)?

 

[Hindsight]

Residuals evaporate with September drilling

Always wondered whether we got Atlantis the wrong way round, I.e. Use contact herb when warm and dry, then residuals when crop established cold and wetter. A bit late now though

If you are a NIABTAG member the answer is available from the wave application trials undertaken in period of roughly 2009 - 2012. Interogate the database or ask one of their agronomists. You probably know the answer. Mesosulfuron was and is a contact and residual chemical - as are many SU's. The gist though was the residual herbicides are more effective pre to very early emergence on blackgrass - and if sowing in September crop growth is fast and thus delaying application until crop established and soils wetter and colder results in application when blackgrass is at least three true leaves and most likely tillered - the true residuals are (much) less effective then.

 

[Spud]

Applying pre ems through an angled nozzle at 300l/ha either very early morning or late evening certainly helps efficacy - coverage is more and evaporation less. I'm always suprised by folk that apply pre ems through an air induction nozzle at 100l/ha 'to get on'

 

[Feldspar]

Applying pre ems through an angled nozzle at 300l/ha either very early morning or late evening certainly helps efficacy - coverage is more and evaporation less. I'm always suprised by folk that apply pre ems through an air induction nozzle at 100l/ha 'to get on'

Some work by Syngenta at their trials on water rates. Big difference between 100, 150 and 200 l/ha. I didn't see the trials, but my neighbour did, and they've just bought some nozzles to allow them to do their pre-ems at 200 l/ha, so it must have been reasonably convincing.

 

[Xylon]

How would companion cropping do with early sown wheat diversity would help with aphid control the combined seed rates should help smoother bg choosing the companion crop to suit the herbicide strategy will be awkward I have s beans with oats spread on disced ground the pre emerge of stomp and defy didn't work well in the dry conditions the untreated area of pre em was no worse than the rest of the field

 

[Neddy flanders]

Been thinking about this. Guess question is if residuals and top ups applied very early September and assuming moisture then, will they prevent "the" flush which is more likely to happen in oct?
Could throw some ffct and avadex on the ground now and see what BG is there at Xmas.
Great idea though.

 

[Brisel]

What do these graphs mean? Every year will vary for dormancy and rainfall patterns but it does suggest a good % will emerge in October.

Residuals do work best pre emergence of the blackgrass. Thr hard bit to decide in a dry autumn is whether to drill, roll and seal in the surface with everything when there's no rain forecast and the land isn't stuff you can just sow easily in a wet October/November. Perhaps splitting the pre em doses to cover yourself would be ok if you have the capacity and can get it done when the forecast changes.

I think if you've got a stack of pre/peri emergence chemistry to apply to a big BG problem then frankly you ought to be reconsidering your system IMHO not worrying about the date of spraying £20/t on a crop you might consider writing off by Christmas if it looks like a lawn of BG.

 

[Feldspar]

@Brisel, a couple of things. Firstly, what are the solid blue and red dashed lines on the second graph? Secondly, what do you think causes the big spike in BG emergence in the no straw and high dormancy plot?

On the black-grass spend, in general the results from NIAB show that the more you spend per ha on BG control the better control you get. We aim to do an Avadex fb Crystal + DFF stack as the standard, and I don't think is uncommon around here. In bad fields (which are unexpectedly bad -- the ones we expect to be bad are not autumn cropped) then we'll add a 2nd FFCT dose or bring forward Atlantis.

Given how much money you can make from wheat compared to beans on this soil type, it's worth growing even with this BG chem spend. Wouldn't say we have a bad BG problem, but it needs a fair chemical spend to keep a lid on things. I have seen a few people who are aiming to be more sustainable in their approach, but their black-grass control seems to be anything but.

 

[Feldspar]

Been thinking about this. Guess question is if residuals and top ups applied very early September and assuming moisture then, will they prevent "the" flush which is more likely to happen in oct?
Could throw some ffct and avadex on the ground now and see what BG is there at Xmas.
Great idea though.

In answer to the first bit, if all chemistry goes on early doors then I think the answer is no. I think they will have run out of steam by then. It would have to be a sequenced approach. I would go with Avadex at drilling and then assess plant and BG emergence by beginning of October. If reasonably clean and with a well emerged crop, then put the Crystal + DFF (in our case) application on (hopefully with some rain) and hope.

An alternative method would be to go much cheaper. Drill untreated seed and drill into exceptionally clean (for the previous harvest) fields and leave until early October and then put the Crystal mix on leaving out the Avadex.

To go even cheaper -- i.e. just drill seed and put nothing else on -- would seem to be going a bit far. I think you'd always aim to put the Crystal + DFF on.

The only other slight way to twist the above is do the Avadex at drilling and then only put the Crystal mix on peri-em. HAM results suggest if following Avadex that peri em like this does not compromise control and would allow you to assess what sort of population you're dealing with. If you don't like what you see at this point, pull the plug without sinking that extra £50/ha.

I spoke to Jon Cussans about this and he said it might work in some years whereas in others it wouldn't. He said you wouldn't know which year you were in until after the fact.

 

[mikep]

More food for thought. I have been looking at the results of my heritage wheat plantings and several things stand out.
Firstly BG can grow 4 ft tall in a tall crop (but most didn't)
Secondly the heritage wheats cannot out run it.
Thirdly BG of whatever quantity makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to the yield.
The main field had everything from zero to lawn status of BG but the wheat accommodated that and the yield (about 1.6t/AC) was similar all over.
In another field with poor soil at the bottom and better at the top and every weed imaginable the heritage wheats looked so bad at the bottom in May I consider putting them or of their misery, taking advice from others I left them be and was stunned to see the rate of growth when they got in gear. The result was that the wheats on the better soil grew early and well but went down in the deluge of July and august whereas the stuff on the poor soil stood well and yielded very well for heritage varieties.
I am leaning to the thought that the older varieties are really just like weeds in the fact that they can make the most of a bad job. They can accept a weed burden that moderns cannot and don't like pampering.
Pity they did not breed these characters into modern crops as yield was king when chemicals worked.

 

[E_B]

Might have a go on some difficult fields next week if conditions allow with full works, avadex etc, madness I'm sure! Strip till but mainly into grass, disturbance is fairly low.

 

[Brisel]

@Brisel, a couple of things. Firstly, what are the solid blue and red dashed lines on the second graph? Secondly, what do you think causes the big spike in BG emergence in the no straw and high dormancy plot?

On the black-grass spend, in general the results from NIAB show that the more you spend per ha on BG control the better control you get. We aim to do an Avadex fb Crystal + DFF stack as the standard, and I don't think is uncommon around here. In bad fields (which are unexpectedly bad -- the ones we expect to be bad are not autumn cropped) then we'll add a 2nd FFCT dose or bring forward Atlantis.

Given how much money you can make from wheat compared to beans on this soil type, it's worth growing even with this BG chem spend. Wouldn't say we have a bad BG problem, but it needs a fair chemical spend to keep a lid on things. I have seen a few people who are aiming to be more sustainable in their approach, but their black-grass control seems to be anything but.

I lifted both graphs from Google images, so can't tell much about the second one. Why the anomaly on the first one? If the study was in 2003, that was a long very hot summer, with no rain from July until October which would explain the flush in October.

Each to their own. On chalk you can make as much from a good spring barley as you can from a first wheat so for BG control the spring cereal is a no brainer. You sound as though you can do far better wheat on your heavier ground to justify the bigger spend on chemistry. Why the comparison to beans??

 

[Feldspar]

I lifted both graphs from Google images, so can't tell much about the second one. Why the anomaly on the first one? If the study was in 2003, that was a long very hot summer, with no rain from July until October which would explain the flush in October.

Each to their own. On chalk you can make as much from a good spring barley as you can from a first wheat so for BG control the spring cereal is a no brainer. You sound as though you can do far better wheat on your heavier ground to justify the bigger spend on chemistry. Why the comparison to beans??

How are you spring barley yields doing relative to expectations? The New Farming Systems NIAB results seem to suggest that spring barley takes a hit margin wise in no-till situations.

I think this year our spring barley will outperform 2nd wheats if it makes malting, but there's a chance with high Ns that it won't. Gap down to feed is big. Feed 2nd wheats don't carry that risk. There is a reason why this area has historically grown a lot of wheat and why the lighter land has favoured barley.

Beans was just one example. Point was that if you don't grow wheat you have to grow something else and the question is then what that is.

 

[Brisel]

Good question. I haven't done a stock take yet but late March sown Propino was shocking due to drought. Planet looks much better and I have a full silo & floor store which suggests 7t/ha depending on specific weight.

 

[Flat 10]

Good question. I haven't done a stock take yet but late March sown Propino was shocking due to drought. Planet looks much better and I have a full silo & floor store which suggests 7t/ha depending on specific weight.

I dream of 7t/ha this year especially!

 

[James W]

Only intend to do a small % this year to reduce the risk. Have some new ground which is a bit lighter and less BG prone that we could try it there. I think barley would definitely be better.

how did your early drilled black-grass land go?