Vets and progress.

[supercow]

Same countrywide also practices are being bought by large companies and creating chains like vets4pets only for large animal . Profit matters so it probably will be a case of pay proper prices or services will switch to small animal and farm animal will be forgotten about . There are areas now can’t attract vets cause it’s unsustainable. Where do you go if you’re in that area

I agree with you, our main farm vet says newly qualified vets simply don't want to do farm vetting, I honestly think it could turn into a problem our vets not able to get farm vets. You get the guys who came from farms who have a passion for farming thus passion for farm vetting, but they are rarer than the newly qualified city person who does not like getting dirty!

 

[Princess Pooper]

I respect my vets who are all specialist farm animal vets, the practice employs others to do the dog and cat stuff. We keep a closed herd apart from making up numbers post - TB and there are no other cattle near us, We have minimal pneumonia and scours, we do vaccinate once for pneumonia. We vacc for IBR, clostridials and lepto and are naïve for BVD. No crypto, salmonella, DD or teat necrosis. We rarely have the vet out, the most valuable visits are herd health planning, other than that it is occasional sick cow visits - eg a Caesar calving. No DAs for years.

Do own foot trimming, AI, fertility treatments and PD either milk test or manually. That said, no fertility treatments for last 2 yrs other than washouts. Vet has trained us to take bloods and any other minor procedures that are legal. I email my vet our herd Johnes results, the quarterly BVD bulk and any blood tests that we might have had done eg for an abortion or mastitis samples that we have had screened to get an idea of what bugs are doing the rounds. If I have a query that I do not think requires a visit, I email (non-urgent) or phone (more urgent) - as yet have never been charged for this. I have been known to take photos of non-urgent (eg calf born with glaucoma) and show to vet in surgery for advice when went to pick up meds. We do have a 'go-to' vet as our main point of contact although obviously this may not be the one who comes out for an emergency.

Running a closed herd, the biggest difference to our herd health came about as a result of tightening up calf rearing protocols about 10 yrs ago, esp colostrum management. We have had scours in 2 calves this autumn when we ran short of tested colostrum. Although the scours was not severe and they improved within 4-5 days. both those calves have noticeably slower growth rates (another thing we do - measure calf growth).

So in answer to the opening question - I think that some of us have made massive progress.

 

[kfpben]

What is staff turnover like with your vets?

I’ve had maybe 10 visits in the last two years; tb testing, blood sampling, a flock/herd health planning hour, a couple of post mittens, a student calf teaching day and a bad lambing.

Of those 10 visits I reckon I have had 8 different vets. They arrive, then 6 months later they’re gone!

 

[Whitewalker]

Assistants aren’t well looked after at ours . There is a steady turnover. Thankfully we don’t need them much

 

[ollie989898]

For the record my wife is a farm vet and you could not pay her any amount of money to look after horses or do small animal work. Not interested, but large animal vets are a drying breed generally, I don't think the job has the pizzaz it once did, and to be perfectly honest if you can stick 5 years of vet school you are clever enough to be a doctor where 6 figures is not out of question.

There seems to be much of a muchness as with most things. There are farms where the vet is a valuable service and the cost of a visit is readily justified because of the saving and improved output it results in. There are other farms where the system is simple, done well and there is just no need to look for every incremental gain.

The vast majority of the people I know are specialist dairy farmers and all of them have routine visits. I do not know how the pricing structure varies from practice to practice. I don't think there emphasis on drugs selling is there any longer, because the veterinary world is living on borrowed time- there will be no new antibiotics licensed for veterinary use even if a dozen novel ones were discovered tomorrow, so the pool of drugs is not some endless bonanza to be flogged in mass market fashion. You also have to know the limitations of them which is nearly a subject in itself these days.

As I have a perspective from both sides of the fence, so to speak, I will say that there are a number of vets who, whilst they might be the cats own ass clinically, they are not people-people and have a habit of talking down to farmers. If it was your doctor doing that, you would have to lump it, but a vet, it's not that way. You can fall out with them and never let them back. It's the same with agronomizing- if you can't get on with people, you're stuffed, which is ultimately where sales training and being personable comes in. I know for a fact that farmers knew precisely what I was going to say before I said it, and I have no doubt that the same is true when my wife is required to give advice. I always took the view that they have all been doing it long enough, and the customer was always right, but that is a mindset that not everyone is able to cultivate so I am not surprised to hear of folk falling out with vets,

On the flipside, there are farmers who will not benefit from any amount of professional advice. What is the point in seeking the assistance or advice of a highly qualified vet, where basic husbandry is missing? Even in my short career, I have seen people mis-using veterinary medicines, or having practices that college 101 told you was a bad idea. You don't have to be Einstein to realise that sometimes the old school thinking was right, and that set scenarios exist where if you do X you are increasing the odds of Y. And sure enough when Y comes, blaming the vet: 'that heifer didn't do well after you injected her' because in reality you should have changed your management months ago before the first clinical case showed itself.

Of course, some people are so frightened of the cost of the vet that they won't call for one until it is literally too late. If there is one good thing from having a vet on the place, it is that you can get them to teach you how to spot the unusual or real nasty stuff and how to either stop it happening, alleviate it, or recognise it as being serious before any blind fool can tell it two days later.

I am fortunate to know and have met a lot of seriously professional livestock farmers over the years, knowing how experienced they are and how much skill they have, and seeing them use routine veterinary work as a management tool, it is obvious that they value it enough to offset it's cost.

 

[Einstien]

Milk test at herd test. Works great. No stress on cows and less stuff ups than the vet. Been using it for a couple years.

Roughly what does that cost now, I remember asking a few years back and Preg Testing say 20 cows was nearly as much as a quick routine visit from the vet, maybe less stress on the cows, but you don't get the advantage of the other bits and bobs the vet can do/answer while there.

There was also something about the cows that got pregnant but re-absorb the embryo early on would give a false positive, was something silly like 5 to 10%. Have they got around this problem now.

I guess the testing is much cheaper now, think our last 20ish cow routine visit was about £86 plus vat from memory

Does sound positive now though, especially if you are already NMR or similar....

 

[happycows]

Do your vets charge a call out fee? Always pains me as it's exactly a mile to the surgery and it's £27.50. I guess there is a element of clean-up time after the visit perhaps but always seem a expensive mile.
Not sure if this is standard charge or if it gets more the further they travel. I'll have too ask.

 

[sidjon]

Do your vets charge a call out fee? Always pains me as it's exactly a mile to the surgery and it's £27.50. I guess there is a element of clean-up time after the visit perhaps but always seem a expensive mile.
Not sure if this is standard charge or if it gets more the further they travel. I'll have too ask.

We get charged and one lives on the farm..

 

[Big_D]

We get charged and one lives on the farm..

I suggest a rent increase is in order

 

[buffalo_soldier]

No call out fee here, built into the hourly rate.
There is a minimum time though, so that could be argued as the call out.

Ignore me

 

[jerseycowsman]

How closely do you work with your vet and how much do you trust in their judgement to do the right thing or do you feel they’ll make a quick quid given half a chance, after all they need to pay staff and make a profit don’t they!

After 30 plus years in the line of milking cows as a general rule of thumb I Perceive there are as many cases of mastitis, pneumonia, lameness, Dermatitis etc as ever in our industry and suggested never ending tests and vaccinations for this that and the other must be a gold mine for the vets.

I’m always being encouraged to do more routine vet visits but I kindly decline to a pd session after a tb test usually. I’m fairly happy with how things are and prefer to get a good natural heat by good nutrition and husbandry with the help of some more modern technology like pedometers but appreciate at times you will need intervention. I’m taking a more holistic approach to anyone requiring treatment as time goes on.

All in all there is as much to do as ever has been in our industry and have we actually made any progress at all?

I personally have weaned myself off nearly all the above, but appreciate a good vet when I really need one and do question if everyone did as I do would that top notch 24hr service be available and that worries me.

With the ever increasing push on lower drug use will reliable vet services be a forgiven in the future and how will they be paid for?

Over vets are fine, I trust them.
But we have no routine visits (apart from tb test). Don't need them. If the cow is bulling she's not in calf, don't need a pd for that. We had 9 cows out of 300 hormone treated to get them bulling and wouldn't have bothered with that if we weren't block calvers!
We had one LDA, one caesarean and had to have an eye cut out, plus lots of pre movement testing as we show and sell a lot and 3 washouts.
If we have a problem I will ask them advice.
But I don't want them telling me how to look after my cows, I can do that myself. Just like I can feed them myself and don't need a consultant to tell me how to do it. Once again, I will ask, but I don't want to be told.
We are multi talented businessmen (all of us farmers on here), we don't need baby sitting by people who don't see our cows everyday

 

[bovine]

@bovine would you charge / provide a service to answer questions only?

I do anyway, both to clients, on here and sometimes via things like Facebook from distant school friends who I'd not recognise in the street.

I've talked about the milk PD tests before and I've found them great for business. So many wrong that they've resulted in me doing more routine work. All it shows is a cow was in calf recently, not how far, if carrying twins, embryonic mortality, mixed samples etc. If AYR calving you can do something about it. Detect other problems such as endometritis, embryonic mortality etc. You also have the value of the vet on the farm to deal with other issues that may arise, but not justify a stand alone call out.

I'm going to split my reply to the theme of the thread for clarity.

 

[bovine]

This is a really interesting topic and it's one of the reasons I joined here. I want to find out farmers opinions and I'm prepared to change how I work and run my practice based on that. I have a lot of years left doing this and a big mortgage and bank loan to pay off. It's in my interests to provide a service my clients want and need (not what I think they need).

Challenges

Brexit throws in a massive unknown. Remove or reduce subsidy and stop farming some areas and that will have a knock on effect. Lot of European labour doing things like meat inspection, dedicated TB testing, ministry work. It's likely to increase the amount of export inspections and paperwork we have to do.

TB and TB testing are huge issues. I fully expect that will move away from a vet only task. It's dull, boring work and has driven a lot of potential keen farm vets into small animal work. It's dangerous and very poorly paid. What it does do is get vets on farm, see all the stock, build a relationship with the farmer. It means more vets in the practice that makes OOH rotas etc better. It means (even in practices with dedicated TB testers) that there are more vets doing farm work, taking this away from vets will reduce farm vet numbers.

In general farmers are getting better. They are dealing with lots of things that they use to use the vet for (milk fevers, sick cows, disbudding, foot trimming, moderate calvings etc) and that does affect the skill growth in younger vets. Its much harder supporting people out on farm (how ever hard we try) and some farmers are not very forgiving about younger vets. It's exhausting as the boss wanting to send people who are the future only to get moaned at because they were slower/not as confident/needed to call for help. I find myself running ragged and not getting paperwork done because I'm in demand while others are sat back at the practice.

Contracting industry. There are less farmers, less people milking. Simply there is less work to go around. The vet industry is really polarising and there is much more specialism now than 10 or 20 years ago. That should mean you get a better vet with farm skills, rather than a jack of all trades. It vastly reduces the number of vets with farm experience when something like foot and mouth comes back. This brings me out in a cold sweat, we wouldn't cope.

Recruitment and retention of staff. Linked to some of the above, educated people don't want to spend their life in the rain TB testing. They need to develop and grow and be supported by the practice AND the clients. Lots of practices out there who simply can't fill vacancies because people don't want to work nights/TB test/drive vast distances. Lots of people leaving the profession. I personally know vets who've committed suicide (we have the highest suicide rate of any profession). Three of my close friends are under treatment for depression. The pressure and stress is immense and much of that comes from clients unrealistic demands (too slow, poor outcome, being wrong, late, expensive, complaints, getting sued).

Farmers are a very varied bunch but most think they are great (probably the same with vets!). Doing the Johne's work has thrown up some shocking husbandry practices that I am amazed still go on. People fail to achieve the basics on so many units. People misuse medicines (I don't believe its always deliberate). It's sad but there are quite a few farmers who need to vastly improve what they do or get out, many of these are the typical low vet user (but many use a lot of drugs).

Money/profit. It's a dirty word but I go to work to make a living, just the same as you. If I'm not making a good living then I'll give up and do something else. Average vet salary is something like £30,000 per year. I was 10 years qualified before I paid any higher rate tax. Veterinary practice makes money but its competitive and margins are not stupid. I might charge ~£120/hour but I don't make that per hour, people forget that. I'm not sat on millions of pounds of an appreciating asset If we want to keep vets we need to pay them better, as a new graduate when I included on call I could earn less than minimum wage per hour.

The future

I wish I knew. It's likely there will be tightening up over the supply and use of medicines, especially antibiotics, on farm. I expect we will lose drugs like Naxcel/Cobactan/Marbocyl completely at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if you needed very strict treatment protocols or even had to speak to the vet before using drugs, even having to call them out to administer certain drugs. Look at some countries and you have to get a vet out for every sick cow to prescribe for that specific animal. I doubt it will get that strict, but regular (3 monthly?) planned visits like they require in the pig industry for medicines, performance etc I could see happening. Potentially people pushed harder into prevention (vaccination, husbandry, building improvements) and penalising the need to treat sick animals (one theory put forward is a 'tax' on antibiotics used to subsidise vaccines). The days when you have lots of bottles of medicine on the farm and jab with your favourite concoction without vet input are numbered - every time I do a health plan something odd crops up. There is appetite for online medicine recording with unannounced spot checks to ensure everything recorded correctly, used up in the broach time etc.

Vets became vets to improve animal health an welfare, not to be glorified drug dealers. I want to make my living from improving things on farm and selling professional time. The issue comes with farmers seeing vets as an avoidable expense or a last resort. Working with your vet should pay dividends and every £1 spent should make you more back, not the case when not having them on farm or using for emergency work. Something I heard very recently that I liked "surround yourself with people who know more about things than you". There is no way a farmer can be an expert in every aspect of their business, use your vet as the expert source of advice in health and welfare. (I say that with great confidence as I do this full time, do a lot of extra training, courses, meeting etc and I still have a number of other people who I call upon when things get complex - it's not possible to be up to date with it all).

So yes, my view is the 'best' farmers work with their vets, have them regularly on the farm and (in our practice) use less treatments, are more productive and more efficient. I expect many of you will disagree, but it's what I've come to expect from the internet.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

Over vets are fine, I trust them.
But we have no routine visits (apart from tb test). Don't need them. If the cow is bulling she's not in calf, don't need a pd for that. We had 9 cows out of 300 hormone treated to get them bulling and wouldn't have bothered with that if we weren't block calvers!
We had one LDA, one caesarean and had to have an eye cut out, plus lots of pre movement testing as we show and sell a lot and 3 washouts.
If we have a problem I will ask them advice.
But I don't want them telling me how to look after my cows, I can do that myself. Just like I can feed them myself and don't need a consultant to tell me how to do it. Once again, I will ask, but I don't want to be told.
We are multi talented businessmen (all of us farmers on here), we don't need baby sitting by people who don't see our cows everyday

You don't have jerseys that show heat yet are bred? See it a decent amount here.

And sounds a healthy herd you have.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

Roughly what does that cost now, I remember asking a few years back and Preg Testing say 20 cows was nearly as much as a quick routine visit from the vet, maybe less stress on the cows, but you don't get the advantage of the other bits and bobs the vet can do/answer while there.

There was also something about the cows that got pregnant but re-absorb the embryo early on would give a false positive, was something silly like 5 to 10%. Have they got around this problem now.

I guess the testing is much cheaper now, think our last 20ish cow routine visit was about £86 plus vat from memory

Does sound positive now though, especially if you are already NMR or similar....

It's $4 here for milk test. $2.50/cow for the vet to check. $20 call out fee. She (Doc Sally) is small and quick, just right for small cows. Can do the whole herd in a milking. 172 checked

 

[Big_D]

This is a really interesting topic and it's one of the reasons I joined here. I want to find out farmers opinions and I'm prepared to change how I work and run my practice based on that. I have a lot of years left doing this and a big mortgage and bank loan to pay off. It's in my interests to provide a service my clients want and need (not what I think they need).

Challenges

Brexit throws in a massive unknown. Remove or reduce subsidy and stop farming some areas and that will have a knock on effect. Lot of European labour doing things like meat inspection, dedicated TB testing, ministry work. It's likely to increase the amount of export inspections and paperwork we have to do.

TB and TB testing are huge issues. I fully expect that will move away from a vet only task. It's dull, boring work and has driven a lot of potential keen farm vets into small animal work. It's dangerous and very poorly paid. What it does do is get vets on farm, see all the stock, build a relationship with the farmer. It means more vets in the practice that makes OOH rotas etc better. It means (even in practices with dedicated TB testers) that there are more vets doing farm work, taking this away from vets will reduce farm vet numbers.

In general farmers are getting better. They are dealing with lots of things that they use to use the vet for (milk fevers, sick cows, disbudding, foot trimming, moderate calvings etc) and that does affect the skill growth in younger vets. Its much harder supporting people out on farm (how ever hard we try) and some farmers are not very forgiving about younger vets. It's exhausting as the boss wanting to send people who are the future only to get moaned at because they were slower/not as confident/needed to call for help. I find myself running ragged and not getting paperwork done because I'm in demand while others are sat back at the practice.

Contracting industry. There are less farmers, less people milking. Simply there is less work to go around. The vet industry is really polarising and there is much more specialism now than 10 or 20 years ago. That should mean you get a better vet with farm skills, rather than a jack of all trades. It vastly reduces the number of vets with farm experience when something like foot and mouth comes back. This brings me out in a cold sweat, we wouldn't cope.

Recruitment and retention of staff. Linked to some of the above, educated people don't want to spend their life in the rain TB testing. They need to develop and grow and be supported by the practice AND the clients. Lots of practices out there who simply can't fill vacancies because people don't want to work nights/TB test/drive vast distances. Lots of people leaving the profession. I personally know vets who've committed suicide (we have the highest suicide rate of any profession). Three of my close friends are under treatment for depression. The pressure and stress is immense and much of that comes from clients unrealistic demands (too slow, poor outcome, being wrong, late, expensive, complaints, getting sued).

Farmers are a very varied bunch but most think they are great (probably the same with vets!). Doing the Johne's work has thrown up some shocking husbandry practices that I am amazed still go on. People fail to achieve the basics on so many units. People misuse medicines (I don't believe its always deliberate). It's sad but there are quite a few farmers who need to vastly improve what they do or get out, many of these are the typical low vet user (but many use a lot of drugs).

Money/profit. It's a dirty word but I go to work to make a living, just the same as you. If I'm not making a good living then I'll give up and do something else. Average vet salary is something like £30,000 per year. I was 10 years qualified before I paid any higher rate tax. Veterinary practice makes money but its competitive and margins are not stupid. I might charge ~£120/hour but I don't make that per hour, people forget that. I'm not sat on millions of pounds of an appreciating asset If we want to keep vets we need to pay them better, as a new graduate when I included on call I could earn less than minimum wage per hour.

The future

I wish I knew. It's likely there will be tightening up over the supply and use of medicines, especially antibiotics, on farm. I expect we will lose drugs like Naxcel/Cobactan/Marbocyl completely at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if you needed very strict treatment protocols or even had to speak to the vet before using drugs, even having to call them out to administer certain drugs. Look at some countries and you have to get a vet out for every sick cow to prescribe for that specific animal. I doubt it will get that strict, but regular (3 monthly?) planned visits like they require in the pig industry for medicines, performance etc I could see happening. Potentially people pushed harder into prevention (vaccination, husbandry, building improvements) and penalising the need to treat sick animals (one theory put forward is a 'tax' on antibiotics used to subsidise vaccines). The days when you have lots of bottles of medicine on the farm and jab with your favourite concoction without vet input are numbered - every time I do a health plan something odd crops up. There is appetite for online medicine recording with unannounced spot checks to ensure everything recorded correctly, used up in the broach time etc.

Vets became vets to improve animal health an welfare, not to be glorified drug dealers. I want to make my living from improving things on farm and selling professional time. The issue comes with farmers seeing vets as an avoidable expense or a last resort. Working with your vet should pay dividends and every £1 spent should make you more back, not the case when not having them on farm or using for emergency work. Something I heard very recently that I liked "surround yourself with people who know more about things than you". There is no way a farmer can be an expert in every aspect of their business, use your vet as the expert source of advice in health and welfare. (I say that with great confidence as I do this full time, do a lot of extra training, courses, meeting etc and I still have a number of other people who I call upon when things get complex - it's not possible to be up to date with it all).

So yes, my view is the 'best' farmers work with their vets, have them regularly on the farm and (in our practice) use less treatments, are more productive and more efficient. I expect many of you will disagree, but it's what I've come to expect from the internet.

Excellent post and unfortunately true re difficulty in retaining and recruiting farm vets

 

[jerseycowsman]

This is a really interesting topic and it's one of the reasons I joined here. I want to find out farmers opinions and I'm prepared to change how I work and run my practice based on that. I have a lot of years left doing this and a big mortgage and bank loan to pay off. It's in my interests to provide a service my clients want and need (not what I think they need).

Challenges

Brexit throws in a massive unknown. Remove or reduce subsidy and stop farming some areas and that will have a knock on effect. Lot of European labour doing things like meat inspection, dedicated TB testing, ministry work. It's likely to increase the amount of export inspections and paperwork we have to do.

TB and TB testing are huge issues. I fully expect that will move away from a vet only task. It's dull, boring work and has driven a lot of potential keen farm vets into small animal work. It's dangerous and very poorly paid. What it does do is get vets on farm, see all the stock, build a relationship with the farmer. It means more vets in the practice that makes OOH rotas etc better. It means (even in practices with dedicated TB testers) that there are more vets doing farm work, taking this away from vets will reduce farm vet numbers.

In general farmers are getting better. They are dealing with lots of things that they use to use the vet for (milk fevers, sick cows, disbudding, foot trimming, moderate calvings etc) and that does affect the skill growth in younger vets. Its much harder supporting people out on farm (how ever hard we try) and some farmers are not very forgiving about younger vets. It's exhausting as the boss wanting to send people who are the future only to get moaned at because they were slower/not as confident/needed to call for help. I find myself running ragged and not getting paperwork done because I'm in demand while others are sat back at the practice.

Contracting industry. There are less farmers, less people milking. Simply there is less work to go around. The vet industry is really polarising and there is much more specialism now than 10 or 20 years ago. That should mean you get a better vet with farm skills, rather than a jack of all trades. It vastly reduces the number of vets with farm experience when something like foot and mouth comes back. This brings me out in a cold sweat, we wouldn't cope.

Recruitment and retention of staff. Linked to some of the above, educated people don't want to spend their life in the rain TB testing. They need to develop and grow and be supported by the practice AND the clients. Lots of practices out there who simply can't fill vacancies because people don't want to work nights/TB test/drive vast distances. Lots of people leaving the profession. I personally know vets who've committed suicide (we have the highest suicide rate of any profession). Three of my close friends are under treatment for depression. The pressure and stress is immense and much of that comes from clients unrealistic demands (too slow, poor outcome, being wrong, late, expensive, complaints, getting sued).

Farmers are a very varied bunch but most think they are great (probably the same with vets!). Doing the Johne's work has thrown up some shocking husbandry practices that I am amazed still go on. People fail to achieve the basics on so many units. People misuse medicines (I don't believe its always deliberate). It's sad but there are quite a few farmers who need to vastly improve what they do or get out, many of these are the typical low vet user (but many use a lot of drugs).

Money/profit. It's a dirty word but I go to work to make a living, just the same as you. If I'm not making a good living then I'll give up and do something else. Average vet salary is something like £30,000 per year. I was 10 years qualified before I paid any higher rate tax. Veterinary practice makes money but its competitive and margins are not stupid. I might charge ~£120/hour but I don't make that per hour, people forget that. I'm not sat on millions of pounds of an appreciating asset If we want to keep vets we need to pay them better, as a new graduate when I included on call I could earn less than minimum wage per hour.

The future

I wish I knew. It's likely there will be tightening up over the supply and use of medicines, especially antibiotics, on farm. I expect we will lose drugs like Naxcel/Cobactan/Marbocyl completely at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if you needed very strict treatment protocols or even had to speak to the vet before using drugs, even having to call them out to administer certain drugs. Look at some countries and you have to get a vet out for every sick cow to prescribe for that specific animal. I doubt it will get that strict, but regular (3 monthly?) planned visits like they require in the pig industry for medicines, performance etc I could see happening. Potentially people pushed harder into prevention (vaccination, husbandry, building improvements) and penalising the need to treat sick animals (one theory put forward is a 'tax' on antibiotics used to subsidise vaccines). The days when you have lots of bottles of medicine on the farm and jab with your favourite concoction without vet input are numbered - every time I do a health plan something odd crops up. There is appetite for online medicine recording with unannounced spot checks to ensure everything recorded correctly, used up in the broach time etc.

Vets became vets to improve animal health an welfare, not to be glorified drug dealers. I want to make my living from improving things on farm and selling professional time. The issue comes with farmers seeing vets as an avoidable expense or a last resort. Working with your vet should pay dividends and every £1 spent should make you more back, not the case when not having them on farm or using for emergency work. Something I heard very recently that I liked "surround yourself with people who know more about things than you". There is no way a farmer can be an expert in every aspect of their business, use your vet as the expert source of advice in health and welfare. (I say that with great confidence as I do this full time, do a lot of extra training, courses, meeting etc and I still have a number of other people who I call upon when things get complex - it's not possible to be up to date with it all).

So yes, my view is the 'best' farmers work with their vets, have them regularly on the farm and (in our practice) use less treatments, are more productive and more efficient. I expect many of you will disagree, but it's what I've come to expect from the internet.

I agree with a lot of what you say, and I know about use it or loose it and all that, but everything is on a shoestring these days.
Brexit may push us further down the New Zealand grazing route, that could be even more detrimental to vets?

 

[Clay52]

I do anyway, both to clients, on here and sometimes via things like Facebook from distant school friends who I'd not recognise in the street.

I've talked about the milk PD tests before and I've found them great for business. So many wrong that they've resulted in me doing more routine work. All it shows is a cow was in calf recently, not how far, if carrying twins, embryonic mortality, mixed samples etc. If AYR calving you can do something about it. Detect other problems such as endometritis, embryonic mortality etc. You also have the value of the vet on the farm to deal with other issues that may arise, but not justify a stand alone call out.

I'm going to split my reply to the theme of the thread for clarity.

If the milk test is wrong a lot it’s because the farmer is getting IDs wrong at herd test. Hardly a fault of the milk test.

Been using it for years now and won’t be going back to the vet.

 

[William Mellor]

If the milk test is wrong a lot it’s because the farmer is getting IDs wrong at herd test. Hardly a fault of the milk test.

Been using it for years now and won’t be going back to the vet.

I've tried the milk PD test and don't think I'll ever go back to it, much better getting the vet to come once a month to do it. Far to many false positives, false negatives and inconclusives that are so avoidable with having the vet. As for false id'in cows thats very unlikely as I'm only a small dairy herd and know my cows as individuals

 

[The Agrarian]

Good post from @bovine

I've the utmost respect for the vets in our practice, all seven of them. A range of ages down to about thirty, but all experienced and know their job. Much of their work is farm related, with a heap of the testing thrown in there. Although it used to be mainly a winter occupation, it has now developed into a year round job, such is the loss of control over the disease. So much four month testing and retesting of breakdowns in summer that they struggled to get everyone the leave they wanted this summer.

I've noticed over the last twenty years a big growth in the pet side of their business. I think they're quite right to expand into it. They are there to make money like everyone else. It's bound to be higher value than the farm work (which still no doubt is classed as the bread and butter), the animals walk in the door to them, and at a time convenient to the vets. Much handier. Farmers are business-minded about what is a justifiable veterinary expense, whereas many of the public can be persuaded through effective marketing etc that this needs done and that needs done. It's a captive market that is waiting to be developed by those who sell the services and products. Vets just don't have the same scope to do that with farms, except the already trod path of suggesting dairy farmers should get every post calving animal checked, and have meetings to review herd health policies etc.

From the farm side of the equation, I don't deny the usefulness of a good vet visit on farm. I also agree that many will get a good return on investment in those services. I personally have chosen the path some time ago of less is more. I have a clear idea of where I want to be with the herd in ten years. Less farmer intervention, less vet intervention, less illness, less antibiotic use, less fallen stock, better margin. Not necessarily more output. I have chosen a breeding path that will not deliver the top end production potential of Holsteins. I think it's reasonable to take the approach that, as with any contracted service the farm buys, if we can do our vet work successfully in-house for less cost, then that's what we try to do. We are down to an average, touch wood, of a couple of vet call out/visits per year for 400 head, and minimal farmer interventions too, but there's room for better outcomes as always. Thankfully, being a grass region, there is probably sufficient livestock density in the area to ensure the need for farm vets for a long time yet.