Vintage World Style

[Mydexta]

Thanks

Yes class is needed

Its the ploughs on the banned list in the classic class that's needed

How can you be allowed to use ucn/scn in a classic reversible class, but not in a classic conventional class????

 

[ploughman61]

How can you be allowed to use ucn/scn in a classic reversible class, but not in a classic conventional class????

Thats sop for you not really intrested in vintage classes.

 

[Vintage Auctioneer]

View attachment 858957View attachment 858958
Howard 150,
Your point is made very well. In the ploughing world all classes up to 1976 are well catered for. I agree that it would be wrong to allow more modern boards such as Fiskars & Kverneland Super Hydreins into the Classic Class. However, there is a gaping hole developing after 1976 which needs filling. Speaking professionally with my auctioneers hat on, the strongest demand in the vintage market is for the classic tractors from the 1980's and 1990's - there should be a class to encourage these into the ploughing field. In my opinion this would add numbers to the hobby and not detract from existing classes. Speaking personally, nothing puts a smile on my face more than getting a first at the wheel of my late father's MF 362 ( Sutton & Huby 3F commercial class last Feb attached).

I take your point but by the same token I have separate external services for my 780 which I used to pull my 2 furrow KV with Super Hydreins on. The kit is all still there and would be easily adaptable to my 35 or any Dexta.

This is where my logic comes from in that a small footprint vintage tractor would be hard pressed to beat some of the larger tractors post 76 that should be found a class to plough in, whilst using what is in essence a modern conventional plough. Leave the Classic Class alone. The work is entirely different.

Taking the lid off another can of worms is how the two different types of work would stand up to a judge’s scrutiny in a fair manner when in the same class. When all is said and done, World style ploughs obliterated the likes of TCN’s and RWM’s when they came in. There is a place for each - but in my opinion not both in the same class - each in a class of their own. The Classic Class is a jewel and should be treated as such. Let’s not let History repeat itself by bringing World Style ploughs into vintage classes at the expense of some great ploughmen and great work being done, more than likely at the expense of one or two well established body types, when there is more than enough room in the movement to accept them in their own right as a new and separate entity. Moreover the 76 qualifying deadline for the age of eligible tractors could also be brought forward to a more realistic date to encompass some of the great modern classic tractors. I am sure 99% of free thinking ploughmen would concur with this viewpoint.

I am already considering such a class at our match at Wetherby this autumn. Who knows. Modern Classic might well be a fitting title.

I take your point but by the same token I have separate external services for my 780 which I used to pull my 2 furrow KV with Super Hydreins on. The kit is all still there and would be easily adaptable to my 35 or any Dexta.

This is where my logic comes from in that a small footprint vintage tractor would be hard pressed to beat some of the larger tractors post 76 that should be found a class to plough in, whilst using what is in essence a modern conventional plough. Leave the Classic Class alone. The work is entirely different.

Taking the lid off another can of worms is how the two different types of work would stand up to a judge’s scrutiny in a fair manner when in the same class. When all is said and done, World style ploughs obliterated the likes of TCN’s and RWM’s when they came in. There is a place for each - but in my opinion not both in the same class - each in a class of their own. The Classic Class is a jewel and should be treated as such. Let’s not let History repeat itself by bringing World Style ploughs into vintage classes at the expense of some great ploughmen and great work being done, more than likely at the expense of one or two well established body types, when there is more than enough room in the movement to accept them in their own right as a new and separate entity. Moreover the 76 qualifying deadline for the age of eligible tractors could also be brought forward to a more realistic date to encompass some of the great modern classic tractors. I am sure 99% of free thinking ploughmen would concur with this viewpoint.

I am already considering such a class at our match at Wetherby this autumn. Who knows. Modern Classic might well be a fitting title.

I take your point but by the same token I have separate external services for my 780 which I used to pull my 2 furrow KV with Super Hydreins on. The kit is all still there and would be easily adaptable to my 35 or any Dexta.

This is where my logic comes from in that a small footprint vintage tractor would be hard pressed to beat some of the larger tractors post 76 that should be found a class to plough in, whilst using what is in essence a modern conventional plough. Leave the Classic Class alone. The work is entirely different.

Taking the lid off another can of worms is how the two different types of work would stand up to a judge’s scrutiny in a fair manner when in the same class. When all is said and done, World style ploughs obliterated the likes of TCN’s and RWM’s when they came in. There is a place for each - but in my opinion not both in the same class - each in a class of their own. The Classic Class is a jewel and should be treated as such. Let’s not let History repeat itself by bringing World Style ploughs into vintage classes at the expense of some great ploughmen and great work being done, more than likely at the expense of one or two well established body types, when there is more than enough room in the movement to accept them in their own right as a new and separate entity. Moreover the 76 qualifying deadline for the age of eligible tractors could also be brought forward to a more realistic date to encompass some of the great modern classic tractors. I am sure 99% of free thinking ploughmen would concur with this viewpoint.

I am already considering such a class at our match at Wetherby this autumn. Who knows. Modern Classic might well be a fitting title.

Modern Classic sounds good to me. The difficult part will be getting the new class established.

How can you be allowed to use ucn/scn in a classic reversible class, but not in a classic conventional class????

I whole heartedly agree with most of what has been said.

The attached pictures illustrate what is out there and not catered for. Top picture is Chilton ploughing match a month ago showing my ploughing ( 3F Kverneland super Hydrein). On the right is a JD 2650 from Satley, Co. Durham with a plough the same as mine which has not seen the light of day for 20 years. Second picture is Amotherby YFC ploughing match a year ago showing my rig with my fathers old original hydrein 3F plough. On the left is a young farmer with a 3F Kverneland no.8 behind a JD 2040S, on the right is a gentleman from my vintage with an IH 885XL from Malton attached to another KV no8 plough, which he has owned for over three decades.
The point is, all this equipment is out there, and the interest is there, it just needs accommodating and encouraging. You are all correct - the missing decades are the 80's and 90's.

 

[Lurker]

How about an "Anything Goes Class" as a demonstration class for those different ploughs and tractors Q-cabs, 4wd's, full hydraulic or part hydraulic, even if your outfit does fit into an established pigeon hole you could still choose to enter if you wished, I've seen this mentioned somewhere, maybe not a perfect solution but it would give some a of those classic relics currently hidden away at back of the barn. See what comes out at matches and maybe then discuss it at national level to see of there is a common ground to base a new class on.

 

[Lurker]

Was sent a list of tractors for all classes, along with new rule book, which i presume was sent to all affiliated society's.

Make and model ploughs as well have photographed it and attached them

Never understood some of this list.
e.g. page 2 'Fordson Super Major' I assume it qualifies as it's on the list but is it just a 1960 model and nothing above where as the B275 looks like can do up to 1967 or am I reading the list wrongly.

 

[Lurker]

How can you be allowed to use ucn/scn in a classic reversible class, but not in a classic conventional class????

You'd assume they would ad the same caveat to exclude those Ransome bodies from the Vintage Reversible too, no thought went in to that just like it's been said there's no interest from the top in vintage/classic classes.

 

[arcobob]

Never understood some of this list.
e.g. page 2 'Fordson Super Major' I assume it qualifies as it's on the list but is it just a 1960 model and nothing above where as the B275 looks like can do up to 1967 or am I reading the list wrongly.

I have not got the new book but the age refers to year of introduction. Thus B275 was introduced in 1958 as was the Power Major and thus both vintage. Super Major was introduced in 1960 thus classic. The date that the various models ceased production had no relevance. The plough body bit is more difficult to understand.

 

[Roy Stokes]

How about an "Anything Goes Class" as a demonstration class for those different ploughs and tractors Q-cabs, 4wd's, full hydraulic or part hydraulic, even if your outfit does fit into an established pigeon hole you could still choose to enter if you wished, I've seen this mentioned somewhere, maybe not a perfect solution but it would give some a of those classic relics currently hidden away at back of the barn. See what comes out at matches and maybe then discuss it at national level to see of there is a common ground to base a new class on.

Anything goes is pretty much World Style, any frame modifications, body modifications and hydraulic assistance goes, I'm with David here, a class for older WS ploughs would be great, and the only way to launch it, as mentioned earlier in this thread is to start at ground level, Classic reversible has been going in our area at least 10 years, now they have a class at the national
Given time the new class will be recognized so long as numbers increase at local level, and given I have enough time between now and Scarcroft I'll be entering the new class to help it along

 

[Mydexta]

There’s a nice cheap bonning on eBay for anyone interested in joining this class

If it does take off, it could be a good investment

 

[Fergie Ploughman]

I think the big flaw with classic reversible is the weight, and that it pushes the competitor to go down the (>7.5T) truck route, as opposed to 4x4 and trailer, this makes a huge difference to the "hobby" as it brings in higher cost's, storage, etc.. Would you be able to come in under the 3.5T with a world style plough and suitable tractor....assume you would (just) ? I think a class like classic world style could become very popular as it would open up a lot more ploughs which could be used which are currently redundant.

 

[Ley253]

I think the big flaw with classic reversible is the weight, and that it pushes the competitor to go down the (>7.5T) truck route, as opposed to 4x4 and trailer, this makes a huge difference to the "hobby" as it brings in higher cost's, storage, etc.. Would you be able to come in under the 3.5T with a world style plough and suitable tractor....assume you would (just) ? I think a class like classic world style could become very popular as it would open up a lot more ploughs which could be used which are currently redundant.

7.5 ton truck need not be expensive, as long as its old! Mind you, no speed limiter then either! For example, the insurance for mine is £86. a year! Tax £165. Break down/recovery insurance £120.

 

[mike.l]

Hi interesting subject going from a truck trailer at under 3-5 t to a lorry at 7.5 t would you be able to drive them with the same licence. As over here the lorry licence would be class A or heavy goods and air brakes another add on all those licences come with a greater cost +medical every year, and eye tests and as we get older those things are harder to obtain, . In fact older people are gradually squeezed out of the higher class licence and that's why most of us run a pickup truck and duel axle trailer, to stay away from the high cost tax disc , and medical and MOT weigh scales on the roads, drivers log book and the list goes on and on mike

 

[Vintage Auctioneer]

Weight is a potential issue - MF 360 + 3F Kverneland Super Hydrein + Dale Kane 16' trailer = 3,480Kg over a certified weighbridge. Add a decent toolbox and your at the limit.

 

[Ley253]

Hi interesting subject going from a truck trailer at under 3-5 t to a lorry at 7.5 t would you be able to drive them with the same licence. As over here the lorry licence would be class A or heavy goods and air brakes another add on all those licences come with a greater cost +medical every year, and eye tests and as we get older those things are harder to obtain, . In fact older people are gradually squeezed out of the higher class licence and that's why most of us run a pickup truck and duel axle trailer, to stay away from the high cost tax disc , and medical and MOT weigh scales on the roads, drivers log book and the list goes on and on mike

same licence. medical every three years, and licence renewal after age 70.

 

[Ley253]

View attachment 860225
Weight is a potential issue - MF 360 + 3F Kverneland Super Hydrein + Dale Kane 16' trailer = 3,480Kg over a certified weighbridge. Add a decent toolbox and your at the limit.

The cost of that lot, is probably five times the cost of my old truck.Then you have to add in the insurance and the higher road tax for a more modern vehicle. Oh and no chance of towing a small caravan so if away any distance, or time, hotel costs!

 

[Vintage Auctioneer]

Everyone's personal circumstances are different, it also comes down to preference and choice. In my case, I plough in the three furrow commercial class - so the MF and KV are what I use. The towing vehicle is what I run through my business - so no additional cost. The only additional outlay is the tri axle trailer and they hold their value very well.

 

[Dealer]

The cost of that lot, is probably five times the cost of my old truck.Then you have to add in the insurance and the higher road tax for a more modern vehicle. Oh and no chance of towing a small caravan so if away any distance, or time, hotel costs!

Harry

Once again you only look at your own status
Most people don't have the space to store tractor and lorry and the kit needed so its day to day vehicle + trailer so cost is only for trailer as they already pay for tax and insurance

Towing a caravan behind a lorry is also a no no as you need a class 2 as not many caravans under 749kg anything more takes you over 8249kg max train weight.

Also owning an older cheap truck has you exposed to potential breakdown and recovery issues.

More chance the rac / green flag will get you home cheap compared to a 7.5 ton truck.

Fergie is right when he says transport kills the classes

World style would be more supported if they could go on ifor trailers

Anyone under 40 still needs an extra test to tow a trailer another restriction

Us under grandfather rights have a big advantage to start with.

 

[Dealer]

View attachment 860225
Weight is a potential issue - MF 360 + 3F Kverneland Super Hydrein + Dale Kane 16' trailer = 3,480Kg over a certified weighbridge. Add a decent toolbox and your at the limit.

Not wanting to call it legal but total weight is not the only restriction

Drawbar nose weight and individual axle weights also come into play.

 

[Ley253]

Harry

Once again you only look at your own status
Most people don't have the space to store tractor and lorry and the kit needed so its day to day vehicle + trailer so cost is only for trailer as they already pay for tax and insurance

Towing a caravan behind a lorry is also a no no as you need a class 2 as not many caravans under 749kg anything more takes you over 8249kg max train weight.

Also owning an older cheap truck has you exposed to potential breakdown and recovery issues.

More chance the rac / green flag will get you home cheap compared to a 7.5 ton truck.

Fergie is right when he says transport kills the classes

World style would be more supported if they could go on ifor trailers

Anyone under 40 still needs an extra test to tow a trailer another restriction

Us under grandfather rights have a big advantage to start with.

no extra space required, tractor and plough can live on lorry.
My caravan is just over 650 kilos.
Auto home ( £120) will either repair at roadside, take you to your destination or home, which ever you chose, and that includes the caravan.
No real worry re age of truck, older is simpler, and so more likely to be repairable at home, though parts may be a problem, and in any case, it will be doing little actual work.
Transport does pose a large problem, but as I feel I have proven, its not as bad as people think, just needs careful research.
My situation is not quite the norm, I am an impoverished pensioner, so I feel I do quite well managing all the matches that I do! That being the case, if I can do it on my income, others may be able to, but not know how, I have tried to point them in the right direction
As I had already answered some of your points in my original post, why did you bring them up again, the figures are actual payments, not estimates.
To conclude, not everyone needs a 4x4 other than to tow their ploughing trailer, many I expect could run a much cheaper family car, with its associated lower running costs, which would cancel out the extra tax and insurance of the lorry.

 

[Dealer]

It's pointless trying to argue with you so I won't bother

But one thing I would say is we all have choices, you constantly bring up your financial status, being a pensioner and the like you don't get any prizes for running kit on a shoestring as you do.
Also your choice has cost you a lot of matches in the last year or 2 due to your equipment needing lengthy repairs to keep things running.

Time, money, resources, facilities all cost in some way.

For most ploughing is a hobby that we choose to do for a few weekend a year being able to enter the sport without to many barriers is what is needed to keep things going.

As for my own transport yes I run a 7.5t truck

I started with a 4x4 and trailer but i am fortunate enough that i can store a truck away from home and limit the wear and tear on my 4x4.

As for storage would I park my outfit on a lorry full time not on your life the plough alone cost more than a lorry never mind the tractor not sure what my insurance would say about my security arrangements.

I also have grand father rights so no change to licence

As for cost running a truck is no free ride

Yes cheap to tax and insure but they all breakdown.

As for disputing your figures I have read my post above several times and can't see anywhere that I mention your running costs or any other costs.

On the plus side to a truck

Safer as my outfit is comfortable within the limits of the lorry limits

Better braking, and less mpg on the lorry than the discovery 4

But as I have said if i needed to do it on the cheap a lorry is not that option in my experience.