multi power
Member
- Location
- pembrokeshire
what is watery mouth ? is it something to do with lack of colustrom ?
Watery mouth prevention
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multi power
Member
- Location
- pembrokeshire
sounds like prevention is easier than cure
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
Bovine. Broadly speakin, if what you are campaigning for became reality lambs would only be born outside at a time of year when the climate was warm and dry enough to support them. Shepherding cost would rise significantly, the trade in ram lambs would be untenable north of Watford and crucially each and every lamb affected with disease would receive many days of antibiotics to cure them and a lot would still enter the breeding chain (as few could afford to kill all walking wounded if they became sound enough to thrive once more). The upshot would be lots more sheep would receive a lot more antibiotics AND SUFFER rather than the current state where 1ml at birth of a drug with no known resistance problems prevents illness and suffering.
Believe me I understand where you are coming from but crucially I earn my living from doing the best I can with what I have from sheep ( and your living relies on me f**king up). I am not large enough to change the world. Few British sheep breeders are. If what you campaign for becomes law, I become destitute and homeless as sheep will only be bred by Super Sheep Industries Inc' and at 48 with no other life skills they are not going to employ me. The breeds of sheep available become limited and those sheep currently born inside and guilty of receiving 1ml of antibiotics at birth will become either extinct or take the form a board of directors who could not tell a Texel from a Cheviot decide.
As I said before I'm just a small scale sheep farming yokel but my view of the sheep farming world under your lordship is as distopian as yours appears to be of the current state of U.K sheep farming.
The above rant is my opinion and does not necessarily reflect the views of other more sensible shepherds.......
Believe me I understand where you are coming from but crucially I earn my living from doing the best I can with what I have from sheep ( and your living relies on me f**king up). I am not large enough to change the world. Few British sheep breeders are. If what you campaign for becomes law, I become destitute and homeless as sheep will only be bred by Super Sheep Industries Inc' and at 48 with no other life skills they are not going to employ me. The breeds of sheep available become limited and those sheep currently born inside and guilty of receiving 1ml of antibiotics at birth will become either extinct or take the form a board of directors who could not tell a Texel from a Cheviot decide.
As I said before I'm just a small scale sheep farming yokel but my view of the sheep farming world under your lordship is as distopian as yours appears to be of the current state of U.K sheep farming.
The above rant is my opinion and does not necessarily reflect the views of other more sensible shepherds.......
Downton_shep
Member
- Location
- Leintwardine
Easier said than done
exmoor dave
Member
- Location
- exmoor, uk
As someone who pushes lowering COP......at what point is it cheaper to spectam all twins and trips than buy the extra straw, possibly lime as well (for main housing pens)?
I've used 4 bottles of spectam, let's say £20 a bottle over my early flock.
That doesn't buy very much extra straw/ lime.
And I already use a lot of straw, hate seeing sheep on dirty housing.
So if you were presented with figures showing a big saving by using spectam. Are you really saying you'd ignore that?
It does have to be pointed out that the "dirty conditions" comments from a few posts above are abit condescending, yes there are farms skimping on straw but there are plenty where the sheds are permanently yellow with the colour of fresh straw, yet still have a problem.
Here I haven't seen watery mouth since moving to a new shed (old shed but new for sheep) 5 years ago, but going on past experiences I usually crack by about 2 weeks in to lambing and start spectam On the twins and trips.
Admittedly I should wait til I get a case.....may try that on the next group.
Think you've found the same as regarding the new shed, our old shed was very draughty and lambs just inside the doors, where it was also damp, were always the most susceptible to watery mouth even if bedding was clean.
Really do believe colostrum is key though, if for whatever reason our ewes were lacking colostrum I would be tempted to go back to preventative treatment but hopefully well avoid that.
Downton_shep
Member
- Location
- Leintwardine
Anyone ever tried udder wipes?? Just thinking aloud really!
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
I too find the comments inferring 'my hygiene is better than yours' to be downright insulting. I have regular visitors to see the lambs from both farming and non-farming back grounds and take great pleasure in being able to allow kids to wallow around in the pens with only a minuscule risk of picking up any muck. If I waited till I lost a lamb to watery mouth I'd be down 300 guineas minimum plus the BOTTLE of antibiotics I would waste because nothing dies uncared for on my farm versus the £20 it costs to treat all my lambs.
As for the public perception of antibiotics and wormers, most urb's go the doc's with a cold and are disgusted not to get A'b's and they would be rather more disgusted to see images of tape worms/fluke in offal, microscopy images of parasites in meat or images akin to starving African babies of lambs with watery mouth. Not one of the many visitors to my place has ever questioned the implications of Spectam and iodine when I tell folk what I'm doing as quickly after they witness a birth as possible.
As for the public perception of antibiotics and wormers, most urb's go the doc's with a cold and are disgusted not to get A'b's and they would be rather more disgusted to see images of tape worms/fluke in offal, microscopy images of parasites in meat or images akin to starving African babies of lambs with watery mouth. Not one of the many visitors to my place has ever questioned the implications of Spectam and iodine when I tell folk what I'm doing as quickly after they witness a birth as possible.
Plus one
KNconsulting
Member
- Location
- Carmarthenshire
Colostrum is vital.
If routinely using antibiotics as a preventative for watery mouth and if there are colostrum problems then chances are that there will be other issues due to lack of colostrum - both losses and reduced performance. This might not be seen until lambs are older so knowing loss rates and when losses are occurring is also useful.
There's lots of places lambing indoors without routinely giving lambs spectam/oroject etc but agree it is easier to practice in some situations. I would however focus on colostrum first but happy to use as a back-up in extreme cases. As @bovine says there is increasing pressure on routine antibiotic usage so as an industry we need to think carefully about using them. The pre-lambing 'tetracycline' injection is a good example and outside of a new problem with enzotic abortion then it should be avoided.
If routinely using antibiotics as a preventative for watery mouth and if there are colostrum problems then chances are that there will be other issues due to lack of colostrum - both losses and reduced performance. This might not be seen until lambs are older so knowing loss rates and when losses are occurring is also useful.
There's lots of places lambing indoors without routinely giving lambs spectam/oroject etc but agree it is easier to practice in some situations. I would however focus on colostrum first but happy to use as a back-up in extreme cases. As @bovine says there is increasing pressure on routine antibiotic usage so as an industry we need to think carefully about using them. The pre-lambing 'tetracycline' injection is a good example and outside of a new problem with enzotic abortion then it should be avoided.
Personally I am relatively happy with people using Spectam as prevention, but the people in Europe who make the rules are not. @Longlowdog this is not my 'utopia' but I hear rumblings that these concepts will be brought in across Europe. The problem we have is a lot of very different countries trying to work to the same set of rules. You have countries like Holland that were using twice as much antibiotic is we were in the UK - they were forced to cut that in half and managed in 18 months.
http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/neth...ic-use-by-50-and-improves-cow-environment.htm
You could argue they made it look too easy.
Look at the Nordic situation - a vet has to examine each affected animal and prescribe treatment. That means each cow with mastitis requires a vet visit. I'm not joking here. They are not allowed to keep antibiotic injections in stock for future use.
You have to remember all these guys are sitting around the same table and trying to come up with a consensus. That will undoubtedly include a year on year reduction in antibiotic usage. If a vet had to come out and squirt the Spectam down lamb's throats I suspect you'd quite quickly find the money to lay some concrete or buy some more lime and straw.
A lot of people use these products to good effect. A number of others do very well with management and no routine antibiotic treatment. It is very much possible to do - but it might require more work.
(I go into a lot of lambing sheds, many look clean. Get down in a pen on your hands and knees and feel the squelch. Dig down a bit and feel the moisture and warmth. See if you can find a cleansing..... Putting fresh straw on old is asking for trouble - the 'best' farms muck the pens out each time).
To clarify - I don't particularly want these products banned, but I highly suspect they will be. You can either carry on doing as you are and ignore it - or look at your system critically and make small improvements. If something like this was likely to be imposed on me - I'd rather be ready for it and prepared. Your call.
('treating' loads more sheep with antibiotic won't be an option either - you will likely have to show a reduction in use year-on-year. In Holland they were brining in a fine sysem)
http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/neth...ic-use-by-50-and-improves-cow-environment.htm
You could argue they made it look too easy.
Look at the Nordic situation - a vet has to examine each affected animal and prescribe treatment. That means each cow with mastitis requires a vet visit. I'm not joking here. They are not allowed to keep antibiotic injections in stock for future use.
You have to remember all these guys are sitting around the same table and trying to come up with a consensus. That will undoubtedly include a year on year reduction in antibiotic usage. If a vet had to come out and squirt the Spectam down lamb's throats I suspect you'd quite quickly find the money to lay some concrete or buy some more lime and straw.
A lot of people use these products to good effect. A number of others do very well with management and no routine antibiotic treatment. It is very much possible to do - but it might require more work.
(I go into a lot of lambing sheds, many look clean. Get down in a pen on your hands and knees and feel the squelch. Dig down a bit and feel the moisture and warmth. See if you can find a cleansing..... Putting fresh straw on old is asking for trouble - the 'best' farms muck the pens out each time).
To clarify - I don't particularly want these products banned, but I highly suspect they will be. You can either carry on doing as you are and ignore it - or look at your system critically and make small improvements. If something like this was likely to be imposed on me - I'd rather be ready for it and prepared. Your call.
('treating' loads more sheep with antibiotic won't be an option either - you will likely have to show a reduction in use year-on-year. In Holland they were brining in a fine sysem)
Downton_shep
Member
- Location
- Leintwardine
What will we do when we get a lame ewe!
Downton_shep
Member
- Location
- Leintwardine
For some reason it wouldn't let me put a wink after the last post!
I am not against the use of antibiotics when they are needed ---just against the wholesale smothering of entire populations without due need
Surely we should approach this on an individual animal level--it's got to be better economically and in slowing down resistance growth? look where we are with anthelmintic resistance---ask anyone with triple resistance how hard it is to raise lambs
COP wise----it's got to be a balance, use cheap AB's now and make money until resistance grows to such an extent that it no longer works . Then pay through the nose for expensive new drugs or have to do without altogether?
shepherdess
Member
- Location
- dorset
Seems these people in Europe like seeing animals suffer cuz if this does happen or when it happens that's what will happen, makes me chuckle like mentioned above by sheptastic get a lame sheep quick jab it!! Yet get a wet mouth lamb oh no we shouldn't routinely be using antibiotics like that??
I don't hear, treat all, only any that get a Prob, I do muck out after each lamb leaves coupe,works for me and believe being a bit ocd when it comes to cleanliness applys when it comes to preventing but that's me hear other farms no matter what they do will get it if they don't treat all and not down to them being dirty, the ewe carrys it, it's in the shed etc from yrs of use.
Don't know enough about it but not totaly convinced it's only down to not enough colostrum seen some hear and other farms that have had good gut fills of the stuff and 2-3 days later get it, be it out side or in, had a cold snap hear last few nights with heavy rain at times, picked one up today 2 weeks old now been in field for a good week, had it, a single that I know drank well from day one, chubby well grown, but struck by wet mouth, she's up tonight after a few hours in heat box and a bit of glucose with hope back out tomorrow
Really think all our vets should be on our side hear, trying to stop the EU bringing this in, I mean yeah it's more ££ for you comming out for a visit every day but in time you will be disgarded for a 410 as it will be the only affordable option for the few that could still farm like it, no matter how clean-well-hard etc we try like us animals get sick without drugs they would suffer.
Mind you last 2 times I've called vet they have been already flat out and unable to get out for few hours, resulting in one dyeing as was needing attention asap how will they all cope if they have to come out to jab a wet mouth lamb? Only to be called back 2 hours later along with any other minor elements were suddenly enept to deal with?
I don't hear, treat all, only any that get a Prob, I do muck out after each lamb leaves coupe,works for me and believe being a bit ocd when it comes to cleanliness applys when it comes to preventing but that's me hear other farms no matter what they do will get it if they don't treat all and not down to them being dirty, the ewe carrys it, it's in the shed etc from yrs of use.
Don't know enough about it but not totaly convinced it's only down to not enough colostrum seen some hear and other farms that have had good gut fills of the stuff and 2-3 days later get it, be it out side or in, had a cold snap hear last few nights with heavy rain at times, picked one up today 2 weeks old now been in field for a good week, had it, a single that I know drank well from day one, chubby well grown, but struck by wet mouth, she's up tonight after a few hours in heat box and a bit of glucose with hope back out tomorrow
Really think all our vets should be on our side hear, trying to stop the EU bringing this in, I mean yeah it's more ££ for you comming out for a visit every day but in time you will be disgarded for a 410 as it will be the only affordable option for the few that could still farm like it, no matter how clean-well-hard etc we try like us animals get sick without drugs they would suffer.
Mind you last 2 times I've called vet they have been already flat out and unable to get out for few hours, resulting in one dyeing as was needing attention asap how will they all cope if they have to come out to jab a wet mouth lamb? Only to be called back 2 hours later along with any other minor elements were suddenly enept to deal with?
gone up the hill
Member
- Location
- Devon
I don't understand why @bovine is so anti farmers for??!!
All he seems intrested in is introducing more red tape for farmers @ the licence to farm he proposed in another thread about farm assurance and then on this thread he is saying farmers shouldn't use something basic like Spectam but instead lose a dozen lambs and then call out the vet to run expensive tests/ consultancy fees up just to tell the farmer he will need to use something like spectam..
All very well him and consultants saying clean out each pen/ lime it between bedding it up/ new sheep which is fine on paper but when your one person lambing several hundred sheep on your own ( due to the economics of the job ) and the weather is crap like now and your tired/ there aren't enough hours in the day etc the reality is quite different!
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
Despite my rant above, I am not anti-Bovine, I hear what he says but argue that practicality beats best practice when your livelihood is on the line. The science is undeniable and the threat of legislation brought in by morons in offices who have no knowledge of the grass roots is inevitable.
When you have a flock that is statistically negligible in terms of the national flock you cannot change the flock, its management or the legislation pertaining to it. So even though you know the science, recognise the professional concerns you compromise because the buyers will not reward you for the extra time, effort, losses, selection criteria etc,etc. Unfortunately compromise is a word that is not understood by politicians and the vocal vegan lesbian single mothers wearing hand knitted bras dictating policy and we come to loggerheads and raise our voices or type in capitals. We are not perfect, neither are they but it is a shame that we cannot find a common ground where animal welfare in both schools of thought are recognised as being worthy within the constraints applicable to the circumstances.
Till then I will argue my corner but I won't deny Bovine et al have a cogent argument with which to parry my blows.
When you have a flock that is statistically negligible in terms of the national flock you cannot change the flock, its management or the legislation pertaining to it. So even though you know the science, recognise the professional concerns you compromise because the buyers will not reward you for the extra time, effort, losses, selection criteria etc,etc. Unfortunately compromise is a word that is not understood by politicians and the vocal vegan lesbian single mothers wearing hand knitted bras dictating policy and we come to loggerheads and raise our voices or type in capitals. We are not perfect, neither are they but it is a shame that we cannot find a common ground where animal welfare in both schools of thought are recognised as being worthy within the constraints applicable to the circumstances.
Till then I will argue my corner but I won't deny Bovine et al have a cogent argument with which to parry my blows.