Weaning at 12 weeks ammo needed

[Barn]

Basically need to more ammunition to throw at my dad to persuade him we need to be weaning our lambs at 12 weeks instead of doing "as we have always done" and leaving them on the mother either until they are sold or weaning around late July August time. My dad is your typical old school farmer who I'm am constantly battling with the try to explore ways to increase our flock efficiency. Currently I see this late weaning as inefficient and we should be weaning at 12 weeks worming the lambs then get them onto the good cleaner grazing ie the silage and hay aftermaths. Dad's theory for not doing this is that if the ewes are still milking and in reasonable condition my not leave the lambs on them... my thoughts are based on what I've read that the milk yield is not actually that great at this stage and actually the lambs are spending to much time following the ewes around for a little bit of milk when in fact they should have their heads down grazing instead....
Sorry for the waffle but I want to be doing things better than we are if that makes sense. Throw some thoughts and ammo my way if you can thanks in advance

 

[Bob the beef]

One of the best things I have done in the last few years. Wean at 90 -100 days. Stick the ewe inside on straw for 3 days then away to rough hill. Lambs never look back when stuck on good grass, and absolutely flying 2-3 weeks after separating. Ewe lives off her back and costing peanuts for 3 months

 

[TALDLONKTUP2]

Maybe your father's right...don't be too quick to believe everything you read. It depends a lot on the type of ewes you've got and your land. These things aren't black and white

 

[It was already broken.]

I just find it is so much easier that I can batch lambs once they are weaned. What can you get away quickly. What is long keep. What is being retained in the flock. And I'm with @Bob the beef in that there is grazing available for dry ewes that would not suit lambs.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Maybe your father's right...don't be too quick to believe everything you read. It depends a lot on the type of ewes you've got and your land. These things aren't black and white

Good call.
Even from year to year things can vary re. weaning date.

 

[Al R]

Maybe your father's right...don't be too quick to believe everything you read. It depends a lot on the type of ewes you've got and your land. These things aren't black and white

I had a few fats go 2 weeks ago (born 5th March) 18hours later we went to the field gate and let the mothers through who’d Just been weaned, in that particular field of singles there were 8 ewes, 7 of them the milk was splashing everywhere as they walked - like a cow who’s missed a milking! Mine are staying on until mid July like every other year. I can understand if your desperately short of grass and need to wean early for that reason but I could do with another couple hundred head here personally.

 

[Werzle]

I border two neighbours who both keep large flocks, one has weaned his lambs and is killing ewes because he's lambed to many and is short of grass, his lambs look puggy and miserable. My other neighbour has his ewes and lambs out together in fields of grass and creep and the lambs have the rings around there necks they are doing so well. I know which flock i would like to own and which system is working.

 

[DartmoorEwe]

I feel your pain and had the same conversation for years. I ended up introducing some of my own ewes and then could start by doing my thing with my ewes. Then, as the work is being done anyway, why not do the same with the rest of the flock - saves gathering twice. Get numbers to back up your way - weigh, count and measure everything. Challenge them to prove that their way is better, why should the burden of proof be all yours? Make sure your way is an improvement and where its not, do it their way ... for now. I've been kicking about here for over 20 years, I'm now able to do whatever I like - because I do it. But age and my new ways have driven the older generation out and that's not great for relationships. Try to have grown up conversations about succession. Get expert advice. Get them to talk to someone they trust about handing over some responsibility. Good luck.

 

[Skintagain]

Why don’t you just trial a few and see how they go you can both be happy and you will know which is best? Obviously have to persuade the trial firstly.

 

[Barn]

Really interesting comments thanks

 

[hendrebc]

If your in any way short of grass the ewes will be more agressive grazees than the lambs and the ewes will eat the best of any grazing while the lambs eat the second quality stuff. That will slow the lambs down quite a bit. If you have loads of grass then keep them on the ewes.
If he wont let you wean then try putting a creep gate inbetween one of the fields were they are and a field of better grazing so the lambs can creep forward to graze. Ive used an upside down half a sheep ring feeder for that before. Then when the lambs have eaten the besr from that field put the ewes there and let the lambs creep forward to another better field of grass again. Works well but not always possible with layout of fields

 

[scholland]

I border two neighbours who both keep large flocks, one has weaned his lambs and is killing ewes because he's lambed to many and is short of grass, his lambs look puggy and miserable. My other neighbour has his ewes and lambs out together in fields of grass and creep and the lambs have the rings around there necks they are doing so well. I know which flock i would like to own and which system is working.

Not really fair to compare 2 farms when 1 is short on grass.
Plenty trial work been done on this such as weaning 1 lamb off hoggs with twins, the arranged lamb grew faster and all on the same grub.
But it all depends what suits your farm, we have rape /irg in and new leys so will wean lambs to eat that at the end of July, rest will be weaned end August.

 

[Werzle]

Not really fair to compare 2 farms when 1 is short on grass.
Plenty trial work been done on this such as weaning 1 lamb off hoggs with twins, the arranged lamb grew faster and all on the same grub.
But it all depends what suits your farm, we have rape /irg in and new leys so will wean lambs to eat that at the end of July, rest will be weaned end August.

Just an observation from over the hedge. He's only short on grass because he's tried to be intensive and kept more than the farm can carry.

 

[WRXppp]

Basically need to more ammunition to throw at my dad to persuade him we need to be weaning our lambs at 12 weeks instead of doing "as we have always done" and leaving them on the mother either until they are sold or weaning around late July August time. My dad is your typical old school farmer who I'm am constantly battling with the try to explore ways to increase our flock efficiency. Currently I see this late weaning as inefficient and we should be weaning at 12 weeks worming the lambs then get them onto the good cleaner grazing ie the silage and hay aftermaths. Dad's theory for not doing this is that if the ewes are still milking and in reasonable condition my not leave the lambs on them... my thoughts are based on what I've read that the milk yield is not actually that great at this stage and actually the lambs are spending to much time following the ewes around for a little bit of milk when in fact they should have their heads down grazing instead....
Sorry for the waffle but I want to be doing things better than we are if that makes sense. Throw some thoughts and ammo my way if you can thanks in advance

Weaned earlier here last year lambs did a lot better as they had the run over the grass leys and the ewes had the perm pasture to go at, we put the ewes in for 4 or 5 days on straw and water to dry them up and then out onto the baldest pp field, I did try creep gates but didn’t have great success as lambs wouldn’t venture far from the ewes. We have three big groups at the moment, 2 are exclusively on grass clover leys and are flying and all totally clean the other have a parkland pp and access to the oldest patch of grass clover ley and are not as well looking and a bit dirty behind.
Earlier weaning meant also we could batch lambs in weight groups and so the largest was on the newest ley and the smallest could have a different wormer with a longer withdrawal period on the oldest leys, we sold lambs quicker and at much higher weight than in previous years with less work so i’d say go for it!

 

[TALDLONKTUP2]

I feel your pain and had the same conversation for years. I ended up introducing some of my own ewes and then could start by doing my thing with my ewes. Then, as the work is being done anyway, why not do the same with the rest of the flock - saves gathering twice. Get numbers to back up your way - weigh, count and measure everything. Challenge them to prove that their way is better, why should the burden of proof be all yours? Make sure your way is an improvement and where its not, do it their way ... for now. I've been kicking about here for over 20 years, I'm now able to do whatever I like - because I do it. But age and my new ways have driven the older generation out and that's not great for relationships. Try to have grown up conversations about succession. Get expert advice. Get them to talk to someone they trust about handing over some responsibility. Good luck.

It seems to me you're not really interested in what's the best system, but rather just winning power games with your father. I think you'd be well advised to rent your own ground and then you can farm the way you want....things are massively different when the responsibility and money risked is all yours. You'll gain a lot in many ways and your family may well respect you more and improve relationships

 

[AJR75]

It seems to me you're not really interested in what's the best system, but rather just winning power games with your father. I think you'd be well advised to rent your own ground and then you can farm the way you want....things are massively different when the responsibility and money risked is all yours. You'll gain a lot in many ways and your family may well respect you more and improve relationships

This is quite a harsh statement but certainly the renting your own ground thing and risking your own money teaches you very, very fast and you learn in double quick time what will work and what won't. Each year is different and inevitably you will find yourself tweaking what you do. You won't nail it first year or even second probably but when it does start coming right it's a great feeling knowing you've done it yourself.

My father does come and help me with some of the jobs he enjoys, drafting lambs, baling etc but leaves me to it after that- tbf he's approaching his mid 70's now and has more than earned the right to comment and pick and choose what he does, and I'm grateful of his advice and help. We don't always see eye to eye but I do try and listen and understand what he's trying to get at. In his head he's generally thinking several months ahead of today and it's taken me a while to realise that.

Annoyingly drawing fat on the weekend he had lambs picked in his head before I'd even got them in the weigher and handled them- but I guess you don't spend your life around stock without picking up a thing or two along the way.

 

[TALDLONKTUP2]

This is quite a harsh statement but certainly the renting your own ground thing and risking your own money teaches you very, very fast and you learn in double quick time what will work and what won't. Each year is different and inevitably you will find yourself tweaking what you do. You won't nail it first year or even second probably but when it does start coming right it's a great feeling knowing you've done it yourself.

My father does come and help me with some of the jobs he enjoys, drafting lambs, baling etc but leaves me to it after that- tbf he's approaching his mid 70's now and has more than earned the right to comment and pick and choose what he does, and I'm grateful of his advice and help. We don't always see eye to eye but I do try and listen and understand what he's trying to get at. In his head he's generally thinking several months ahead of today and it's taken me a while to realise that.

Annoyingly drawing fat on the weekend he had lambs picked in his head before I'd even got them in the weigher and handled them- but I guess you don't spend your life around stock without picking up a thing or two along the way.

Sorry, that's as polite as you'll get in Yorkshire!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

If your in any way short of grass the ewes will be more agressive grazees than the lambs and the ewes will eat the best of any grazing while the lambs eat the second quality stuff. That will slow the lambs down quite a bit. If you have loads of grass then keep them on the ewes.
If he wont let you wean then try putting a creep gate inbetween one of the fields were they are and a field of better grazing so the lambs can creep forward to graze. Ive used an upside down half a sheep ring feeder for that before. Then when the lambs have eaten the besr from that field put the ewes there and let the lambs creep forward to another better field of grass again. Works well but not always possible with layout of fields

I split off corner of a paddock with a 2-wire electric fence just like you guys with suckler cows would do in a barn with a creep gate - that seems to work pretty well, and I haven't noticed it teaching the lambs to 'poke' as a 3-wire still holds them

When the lambs have their own creep area the bigger ones largely half wean themselves by the time you make the call, and that is a clue that 'you' got it about right.

But when you need to prioritise food, yesterday was the time to do it IMO - not hard to fall off the grand plan some years!!

A difficult one (fathers I mean) I was very fortunate to see eye to eye with mine on just about everything barring music -
but history is not necessarily enough proof not to explore the options, either and plenty seem very set in their ways based on their experience, and sometimes a gradual desire to just take it easier.

That is often why the conflict occurs, they have watched us make all sorts of mistakes over the years and probably hold that against us when it is time to look at changing farm operations - just keep talking..... one day you won't have the option.

 

[DB67]

Can’t see any benefits at all on running ewes with lambs for any longer than needed IF you have good clean grass to wean lambs onto. They shift better in my experiences over last few years.

 

[DartmoorEwe]

It seems to me you're not really interested in what's the best system, but rather just winning power games ...

You are uncomfortably right.