Weaving GD user thread

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
There's no such thing as a stupid question - only the one that isn't asked. Ok, there are some stupid questions about but I've never seen any from you. (y)

Fair point about penetration - wood splits easiest when the blows come from parallel with the grain of the wood but that's no use when trying to fell a tree from the side. An angle is just the compromise.

I've helped out towing lorries & cars at events where the parking was on old permanent pasture. Afterwards I just pulled a chain harrow & flat roller over the ruts & within a couple of months they had mostly been filled in by the earthworms. The ability of healthy soil to repair itself is great. Obviously this is going to need a bit of help to level the ground out afterwards...
1586604246483.png


I like the rear harrows on my Claydon as they pull a bit of soil about to help level the fields. The only uneven bits now are where they dropped lumps of soil & trash on the headlands where I lift out. I don't miss sprayer ruts 2 feet deep!
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
There's no such thing as a stupid question - only the one that isn't asked. Ok, there are some stupid questions about but I've never seen any from you. (y)

Fair point about penetration - wood splits easiest when the blows come from parallel with the grain of the wood but that's no use when trying to fell a tree from the side. An angle is just the compromise.

I've helped out towing lorries & cars at events where the parking was on old permanent pasture. Afterwards I just pulled a chain harrow & flat roller over the ruts & within a couple of months they had mostly been filled in by the earthworms. The ability of healthy soil to repair itself is great. Obviously this is going to need a bit of help to level the ground out afterwards...
View attachment 869851

I like the rear harrows on my Claydon as they pull a bit of soil about to help level the fields. The only uneven bits now are where they dropped lumps of soil & trash on the headlands where I lift out. I don't miss sprayer ruts 2 feet deep!
Christ!
That picture needs putting on the W.T.F and/or Wreckers threads.
How the heck did you/they get that out?
 
@Feldspar had trouble with his slot closure too after his 750A. He stubble raked at an angle & even ran a power harrow lightly over the top of some. If the seed has a shoot coming up I'd leave it or you'll be risking terminal damage. There's a nice humid microclimate down there & you'll have good fissuring in the soil underneath. An inch of rain and the slots will close up anyway.

I thought that part of the benefit of the design was slot opening was supposed to be reduced with an angled disc?

Power harrowing behind the drill is a very under-rated technique on heavy clay. Fast and just brushing the surface. Our spring crops are coming up now and I am pleasantly surprised by how even they are. Power harrow smashes the slots so they don't open up when things dry further. Used the rake when the soil was a bit damper. Toward the end only the power harrow would do it. I'd like to try some rolls with levelling boards as an alternative.
 

Warnesworth

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Chipping Norton
I'll chip in if I may...

Slot closure - this is always tricky at best with a disc drill which is why Steve & I at Soil First Farming always harp on, to the point of boredom, about tine drills being a better option early on in your voyage into CA.

What do we need to close the slot - tilth. What do we not have in the early years of zero till - tilth.
Which is more likely to create a little tilth, a disc or tine?

Now @Two Tone 's trial field, one side of the field was too wet, the other too dry, almost. Again both instances where a disc drill is most likely to fall down. We find that tines have a much wider window of drilling opportunity. Rolling will help in good conditions but is never perfect if the soil conditions were not good at the point of drilling.

Once you are a few years into a CA system and the top few inches of soil are increasing in SOM and becoming more friable this problem starts to reduce. This field was ploughed last autumn so never a great starting point and this showed with the depth the wheels were sinking on the wetter areas.

Mg: yes there could be a soil mag issue here (I have some soil analysis from the neighbouring field so will check that) and mag will certainly show in extremes of wet (sticky) and dry (soil contraction/cracking/slot opening).
 

Warnesworth

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Chipping Norton
  1. I disagree. A disc will be always pushing up out of the ground. A tine will be pulling itself in. Not an issue here because you've got plenty of weight and a good design. It's no coincidence that you can add tonnes of ballast to drills like the Horsch Avatar and Cross Slot for this reason. Add in stones & you have another tendency to ride up out of the ground.
  2. Agreed, though needs careful setup to allow for conditions. With hindsight what I've seen in recent threads like this more weight should have been put on closing wheels but we were all working into a thin dry crust over a soggy pudding when most of this was sown. Squeeze wet soil with excess press wheel weight and you'd really damage establishment.
  3. Yes, I like the design of the GD and Boss openers because of this.
  4. Not so sure but I haven't got enough personal experience of this to comment properly. A worn disc with a blunt edge will be even more likely to hair pin. A tine will sweep this away.
  5. I agree
I disagree with your last 2 points. Have you tried other disc and tine drills? There's a very good reason the JD 750A is the world's number 1 drill opener and most of the competition copy it. Ask @Warnesworth why he prefers a tine drill! I'd like to have a tine drill and a disc drill in the shed but to get started I think I'll start with a tine, much as I will curse it's inability to sow direct into badly chopped barley straw.

Should Groundswell go ahead, that would be a very good place to directly compare drill design. I'm sure you could wear a disguise so we wouldn't know you're there, though everyone is welcome & it's a great place for open discussion. I didn't see a single mankini last year unless @SilliamWhale was wearing it under his normal clothes :ROFLMAO:
One of the, if not the major advantages I see with a GD is the angled discs:
1. Undoubtedly better soil penetration.
2. The wheel/roller squashes ALL the soil back over the seed much better that any vertical disc could do.
3. Far less chance of soil shrinkage exposing seed to the surface.
4. Much reduced “hair-pinning” of any straw or trash.
5. Ultimate minimum soil disturbance for weed (especially Blackgrass) control.

There is much talk with DDer’s of the need to have both a disc drill and a tine drill for DD users.
IMO opinion, the GD is the only drill that gets around this requirement.
Also IMO, this is the only DD drill that will cope in all soil types.

Just to add to @Brisel response to this;
1, it's all about the soil conditions at the point of drilling, one is not better than the other (disc or tine).
2, in theory yes, but did it?
3, sorry nope, can't agree with that.
4, ALL disc drills hair-pin when there is dry residue and chaff. End of. If it has a disc it will hair-pin. Consign this thought to your permanent memory bank.
5, yes, very much so, in the right soil conditions.


@Brisel I know you don't agree with me but a good tine drill will cope fine with chopped barley straw, for the record. Again.
 
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Warnesworth

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Chipping Norton
Thinking further along how the system works, I’m looking for some advice on what, if any extras are needed.
When Simon and diver, Glen did their demo for us the other day, we didn’t drill tramlines because it was easy to see where they had been in the failed rape.
Assuming that it is fitted as standard, do the drills actually need a tramlining system?
The same goes for pre-emergence marker - are they actually needed?
Or do most people try to move their tramlines to a different angle each year, to maybe help level the fields?
I note that width markers are not fitted as standard and that many now use sat-nav steering.
On a 3 metre machine, could you manage without markers, perhaps with the use of an Egnos signal Trimble type system that still requires the driver to actually steer the tractor (perhaps with sight correction as the tractor wheels will be so close to where the last outside drill coulter was during that last run)?

Even though @Brisel and @SilliamWhale don’t use a GD, I’d like their opinions on these questions too please.
Once the soil has stabilised over a year or two you shouldn't need to cultivate to alleviate tramlines. Keep them permanent & drill through them and put them back in with the sprayer on GPS if you need to. You do need to start with your fields level.

Here's a good example, taken a couple of weeks ago. 6yrs or so CA. The only place where the crop has not established in the tramline is in a very wet patch.
p.s. drilled late October (not ideal, but weather driven decision) with a tine drill! A converted Sprinter on Dutch points (other points are available). It's all you need. Cheap, effective. Duckin' brilliant.
IMG_7472.jpg
 
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clbarclay

Member
Location
Worcestershire
Slot closure with tine drills can be easier said than done in some soil conditions. I have had several occasions where tine drills leave a castlated surface with exposed seed down in the troughs and nearly all the loose soil (clods) on the high ground between the slots.

A pass with the stubble rake across the direction of drilling works better than any drill mounted harrow I have tried yet, but that means another pass.

After one field of wonky drilling and misses. I have parked up the GD and using the tine drill for the rest of the beans, which should be an interesting comparison.
 

Warnesworth

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Chipping Norton
Slot closure with tine drills can be easier said than done in some soil conditions. I have had several occasions where tine drills leave a castlated surface with exposed seed down in the troughs and nearly all the loose soil (clods) on the high ground between the slots.

A pass with the stubble rake across the direction of drilling works better than any drill mounted harrow I have tried yet, but that means another pass.

After one field of wonky drilling and misses. I have parked up the GD and using the tine drill for the rest of the beans, which should be an interesting comparison.
Tines are not a panacea but are generally better we find, excepting certain conditions. Results are also driven by soil conditions, forward speed, tine width, depth and design, soil mg content etc etc.

We try to stay away from raking, especially in high grass weed situations.
 

clbarclay

Member
Location
Worcestershire
On the subject of bout markers and tramline markers etc. I find Auto steering makes them superfluous with no till.

This spring I tried putting out a marker once and pulled it back in again a short while later after watching it bounce and leave virtually no mark on the dry crust. When I had a GD demo a few years ago, I stopped bothering with the bout markers after a few passes. The mark was too faint and was mostly just judging position by the slightly open slots left by the last pass to find where the bout marker line had got to.
 

Warnesworth

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Chipping Norton
Disc drill (not GD) used in very wet conditions in Feb on moderate ground. Admittedly the condition after drilling played as big an impact as the conditions at drilling. But here I think nothing would have given the desired result.
210C1064-0DFC-43AF-B3B7-9DFB4BF37C79.jpeg
C27DC289-11DB-44D0-88F2-027475840B95.jpeg
 
I don't use tramlines either. I prefer to have something growing though in winter crops mostly that gets driven and killed.

Discs vs Tines debate goes on and on. I'll always choose a disc for cereals, grass and legumes. Never been super happy with disc with osr but its mainly my management.

I find I can close the slot ok if I roll within 24 hours but I also have the luxury of the seed firmer on the 750 which is in effect a mini roller. If slots are too open then you may be seeding too deep, too much down pressure, too wet etc.

Rain also closes the slot naturally anyway - I want to do less rolling in the Autumn now. I don't think the roll a lot in the dry states of the USA so that must mean something.

Slugs eventually become less of an issue I find.

Also keep it simple and follow the rules - 25-33% spring crops is ideal, start at the easiest bit, till away some issues until your confident, keep an eye on brome.
 
Disc drill (not GD) used in very wet conditions in Feb on moderate ground. Admittedly the condition after drilling played as big an impact as the conditions at drilling. But here I think nothing would have given the desired result. View attachment 870077View attachment 870079

Just too wet - sidewall looks tight. I'd imagine the seedlings got flooded out there (unless eaten) because there would have been enough humidity for germination for sure. Even if the slot got close I'd imagine something else would have done for those plants.

Management cock up there - not a drill cock up. All the drills can do a great job nowadays, we decide when we put them in the field. Farmers like to blame their drill so they can avoid personal responsibility!!
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
I'll chip in if I may...

Slot closure - this is always tricky at best with a disc drill which is why Steve & I at Soil First Farming always harp on, to the point of boredom, about tine drills being a better option early on in your voyage into CA.

What do we need to close the slot - tilth. What do we not have in the early years of zero till - tilth.
Which is more likely to create a little tilth, a disc or tine?

Now @Two Tone 's trial field, one side of the field was too wet, the other too dry, almost. Again both instances where a disc drill is most likely to fall down. We find that tines have a much wider window of drilling opportunity. Rolling will help in good conditions but is never perfect if the soil conditions were not good at the point of drilling.

Once you are a few years into a CA system and the top few inches of soil are increasing in SOM and becoming more friable this problem starts to reduce. This field was ploughed last autumn so never a great starting point and this showed with the depth the wheels were sinking on the wetter areas.

Mg: yes there could be a soil mag issue here (I have some soil analysis from the neighbouring field so will check that) and mag will certainly show in extremes of wet (sticky) and dry (soil contraction/cracking/slot opening).
Thanks @Warnesworth for you help and experienced thoughts.
I deliberately chose this field because of the different soil types. This is going to be quite a test as to how the system works. Much of which will depend on whether we get any of the predicted rain this evening.
Had it gone direct into a stubble, rather than into a failed rape crop (ploughed, combi, rolled and Christ knows how much rain!), any drill would have made a better job.

I have 2 other fields beside this one that we have tried 2 different approaches on to compare.
The 1st was combi drilled with my System Disc Kuhn Combi-venta very slowly and i struggled to get much depth. It looks pretty on top and was rolled.
The 2nd was straight in with a Vaddy 3 meter system disc box drill. This did manage to move a lot of soil. A litttle too cloudy, even after rolling.

The crop is spring oats straight off the heap. Both the GD and the Vaddy struggled a bit with the short straw in the seed, however the combi managed no problem at all.

This is all on failed rape. Sown because I’ve sprayed the Blackgrass off and I want the field to be growing something.
My original plan was not to crop it, but If it comes to harvest that will be a bonus.


We did try to get a demo of a Claydon, but they rang back to say that they had sold the demo drill. I think it would have struggled in these conditions. I wonder if they knew that and weren’t prepared to demo it beside the GD in these conditions. I do have a farmer friend near here that has a Claydon and I will go and look at his fields to evaluate that system too.

Yes I realise about Discs and hair-pinning. But we do bale and remove all straw here and an angled disc, compared to any vertical discs must hair-pin a lot less.
I also like the idea of using Dutch openers on a Sprinter type drill to get started with DD. However, of huge concern to me is Blackgrass control and moving as little soil as possible. I also like to drill early in good conditions. I’m trying to weigh up whether it might be better to use a GD in mid to late September, into unmoved stubbles in good conditions, moving as little soil as possible OR use a tine type drill later moving a lot more soil?

Having gone through the min-TIL “fashion” and wrecked this farm with regards Blackgrass. Then, having got it all back under control by going back to proper, good ploughing, the last thing I want to risk is running down that road again.
 
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FWIW I don't agree with Warnesworth about hairpinning. Good sharp blades and a well structured soil will cut surface straw. Or even if we did come to a mutual conclusion about hairpinning I'd say most of the time its not a problem for the seed from my experience.

That is not to saw I would expect to have an easy time drilling into 12t/ha of winter wheat straw - I wouldn't. But you can manage your way around all these issues if you want to - either by baling, cutting higher and rotation. But that wouldn't be the place I would seek to drill a second winter cereal -

At all parts of your rotation you will have strengths and weaknesses. A short disc with a seeder can drill OSR or keep your low disturbance subsoiler for rape which will allow you to get rid of some excess straw.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
There's no such thing as the perfect drill. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses.

Of course, one could argue that a plough and power harrow combination is the most versatile system of all. Now excuse me while I run for cover for daring to utter such heresy in a DD forum.... ?
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
There's no such thing as the perfect drill. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses.

Of course, one could argue that a plough and power harrow combination is the most versatile system of all. Now excuse me while I run for cover for daring to utter such heresy in a DD forum.... ?
Was your mouth out!................With chocolate!
 

Bill Turtle

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Essex
As far as using a free signal like Egnos to drill with, forget it. We tried using Egnos for quite a few years for a variety of jobs. It was useable for rolling or raking but couldn’t even keep accurate to half a metre or more some days.
That tractor now has rangepoint which is accurate and reliable enough to drill on.
If I was using Egnos with my 4 metre Simtech I didn’t and used my eyes instead.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
I’ve got Rangepoint RTX in the combine. Came as standard and I think the sub is circa £350/year. EGNOS is ok for guidance but you need something better for drilling IMO.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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