Welsh Farming And TB

[bluebell]

Watched a tv programe the other week, welsh tv, the tv programe was on a large dairy farm in wales and high lighted the amount of work, stress, cost, and worry that the TB testing causes, watching the programme anyone with half a brain could make a direct link between badger numbers and the spread of TB, so why bother? None of the "govt, lot/civil servants, would work, any where that hard, and have all the worry so why bother, dairy farming is one of the hardest jobs to do, when every thing goes well? But with a, please correct me any one from wales, a 60 day test, then if you have a "reactor" a shut down on selling stock, why bother? Pack up let the others show how its done?

 

[vantage]

Watched a tv programe the other week, welsh tv, the tv programe was on a large dairy farm in wales and high lighted the amount of work, stress, cost, and worry that the TB testing causes, watching the programme anyone with half a brain could make a direct link between badger numbers and the spread of TB, so why bother? None of the "govt, lot/civil servants, would work, any where that hard, and have all the worry so why bother, dairy farming is one of the hardest jobs to do, when every thing goes well? But with a, please correct me any one from wales, a 60 day test, then if you have a "reactor" a shut down on selling stock, why bother? Pack up let the others show how its done?

Because there aren’t any other profitable options with the majority of land types and weather we get in Wales, in for a penny in for a pound, you don’t bale out without a serious fight.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

We as a country are fat, bloated, lazy and complacent. Just read in the paper that Russia are now starting to set fires to infrastructure in Europe (using criminal gangs), so maybe food shortages will appear sooner than we think, and governments will rethink agricultural and wildlife policies.

 

[bluebell]

Ffermer Bach, its very ironic in this time, at one remember D_Day and all those who took part, on the front line fighting or at home in the factories, farms etc, fighting, dying, suffering hard ships and worry, and todays UK where we are daily being invaded by young men of fighting age, who local to me at a former RAF base, are being wined and dined, complaining, demonstrating about "how long have we got to put up with all this"?

 

[bluebell]

What really gets me is how we always have treated those who have, or are expected to do so much for this country? Yes question im talking about young men and women who volunteer to join the armed forces and if need be fight and possibly die or get injured either physically or mentally, then you get the likes of "old mcdonnald" come on here when ive mentioned this before on this forum, make a remark like " well they choose to join and know what they are letting them selves in for?", Well thank god some brave youngsters are still prepared to do that, or who will defend you and your free speech, old mcdonnald?

 

[bluebell]

There we are 3 posts in one go, in hindsight i my self wished that national service had still continued, reason it would have done me alot of good and most others, todays UK society has many problems, and there isnt a magic "fix" but i honsetly think that if we had all gone through the national service system society would be alot better?

 

[matthew]

Over decades, unions and government (under pressure) have made zoonotic Tuberculosis 'livable with'.

We have signed international agreements to eradicate this grade 3 zoonosis from our cattle, and other countries, using the same primary test / slaughter of any reactors to it, have done so very successfully.
We alone in that exclusive club, refuse to countenance the iconic badger (huggers' words not mine) as playing any part in the cycle.

Thus an industry has evolved to protect this overgrown rat, and another industry to take live produce from farms under restriction. Calf units, fattening units and various coloured markets under Apha licences.. Not to mention the industry of cattle valuations in Wales. (not tabular averages as in England) and veterinary largesse from continuous testing cycles.

Vaccination of wild badgers has been sold as an alternative solution to farmers under the cosh of continuous restrictions. It is not. And neither is cattle vax, even with a flawed DIVA test. It's moonshine. And a pension for the Weybridge crew attempting to torture it into submission.

The out flow of zTB in other species (from badgers) is mainly unpublicised, but the disease is a serious concern in alpacas, sheep, pigs and companion mammals . Particularly cats. And horses get the disease too: found at slaughter and the offending carcase quietly binned.

Without control of this incontinent wild mammal, which decorates the Wildlife Trust's collection boxes so prettily, lvestock farmers on are on a hiding to nowhere.

But while farmers can still sell milk, meat and, even at a lower price, surplus stock, while (in Wales) being paid handsomely for reactors, sadly, I suspect they will put up with the 90 day testing.

I saw the programme too. The dairy farm and its occupants were immaculate. The W Trust woman an un challenged liar, when she posited that 80 per cent of cattle TB is cattle to cattle transmission.
She also rearranged some statisitcs to indicate fewer farms in Wales were under restriction - with no lethal invention on her stripey money pots.

That is deliberately confusing New Herd Incidents, with the Prevalence of zTB in Wales. That is, farms under continual restriction - as the dairy farm in the film. Taken logically, if all farms in Wales were under TB restriction, there would be NO new herd incidences. None. But the disease would still be there, and herds like the dairy herd featured would be testing every 90 days, and losing cattle.

The carefully modelled statistics would be good though.

Rant over.



.

 

[bactosoil]

Over decades, unions and government (under pressure) have made zoonotic Tuberculosis 'livable with'.

We have signed international agreements to eradicate this grade 3 zoonosis from our cattle, and other countries, using the same primary test / slaughter of any reactors to it, have done so very successfully.
We alone in that exclusive club, refuse to countenance the iconic badger (huggers' words not mine) as playing any part in the cycle.

Thus an industry has evolved to protect this overgrown rat, and another industry to take live produce from farms under restriction. Calf units, fattening units and various coloured markets under Apha licences.. Not to mention the industry of cattle valuations in Wales. (not tabular averages as in England) and veterinary largesse from continuous testing cycles.

Vaccination of wild badgers has been sold as an alternative solution to farmers under the cosh of continuous restrictions. It is not. And neither is cattle vax, even with a flawed DIVA test. It's moonshine. And a pension for the Weybridge crew attempting to torture it into submission.

The out flow of zTB in other species (from badgers) is mainly unpublicised, but the disease is a serious concern in alpacas, sheep, pigs and companion mammals . Particularly cats. And horses get the disease too: found at slaughter and the offending carcase quietly binned.

Without control of this incontinent wild mammal, which decorates the Wildlife Trust's collection boxes so prettily, lvestock farmers on are on a hiding to nowhere.

But while farmers can still sell milk, meat and, even at a lower price, surplus stock, while (in Wales) being paid handsomely for reactors, sadly, I suspect they will put up with the 90 day testing.

I saw the programme too. The dairy farm and its occupants were immaculate. The W Trust woman an un challenged liar, when she posited that 80 per cent of cattle TB is cattle to cattle transmission.
She also rearranged some statisitcs to indicate fewer farms in Wales were under restriction - with no lethal invention on her stripey money pots.

That is deliberately confusing New Herd Incidents, with the Prevalence of zTB in Wales. That is, farms under continual restriction - as the dairy farm in the film. Taken logically, if all farms in Wales were under TB restriction, there would be NO new herd incidences. None. But the disease would still be there, and herds like the dairy herd featured would be testing every 90 days, and losing cattle.

The carefully modelled statistics would be good though.

Rant over.



.

while agree stong leadership is needed to be firm and help stamp out BTB i cannot fathom why BTB dormancy in soil is never factored in and yet most experts on Btb will state that is a likely contributing factor when challenged

 

[sidjon]

Over decades, unions and government (under pressure) have made zoonotic Tuberculosis 'livable with'.

We have signed international agreements to eradicate this grade 3 zoonosis from our cattle, and other countries, using the same primary test / slaughter of any reactors to it, have done so very successfully.
We alone in that exclusive club, refuse to countenance the iconic badger (huggers' words not mine) as playing any part in the cycle.

Thus an industry has evolved to protect this overgrown rat, and another industry to take live produce from farms under restriction. Calf units, fattening units and various coloured markets under Apha licences.. Not to mention the industry of cattle valuations in Wales. (not tabular averages as in England) and veterinary largesse from continuous testing cycles.

Vaccination of wild badgers has been sold as an alternative solution to farmers under the cosh of continuous restrictions. It is not. And neither is cattle vax, even with a flawed DIVA test. It's moonshine. And a pension for the Weybridge crew attempting to torture it into submission.

The out flow of zTB in other species (from badgers) is mainly unpublicised, but the disease is a serious concern in alpacas, sheep, pigs and companion mammals . Particularly cats. And horses get the disease too: found at slaughter and the offending carcase quietly binned.

Without control of this incontinent wild mammal, which decorates the Wildlife Trust's collection boxes so prettily, lvestock farmers on are on a hiding to nowhere.

But while farmers can still sell milk, meat and, even at a lower price, surplus stock, while (in Wales) being paid handsomely for reactors, sadly, I suspect they will put up with the 90 day testing.

I saw the programme too. The dairy farm and its occupants were immaculate. The W Trust woman an un challenged liar, when she posited that 80 per cent of cattle TB is cattle to cattle transmission.
She also rearranged some statisitcs to indicate fewer farms in Wales were under restriction - with no lethal invention on her stripey money pots.

That is deliberately confusing New Herd Incidents, with the Prevalence of zTB in Wales. That is, farms under continual restriction - as the dairy farm in the film. Taken logically, if all farms in Wales were under TB restriction, there would be NO new herd incidences. None. But the disease would still be there, and herds like the dairy herd featured would be testing every 90 days, and losing cattle.

The carefully modelled statistics would be good though.

Rant over.



.

I follow bovine tb on twatter ,and the misinformation they try to correct is unbelievable, even with hard data showing how well the cull has work ,badger trust and other shouting how the cull was a waste of money

 

[matthew]

while agree stong leadership is needed to be firm and help stamp out BTB i cannot fathom why BTB dormancy in soil is never factored in and yet most experts on Btb will state that is a likely contributing factor when challenged

The bacterium can survive for up to two years in damp, dark places - badger sets?- but is usually excreted by incontinent wildlife on our grassland. And UV light will zap it within a couple of hours.
The former boss of the Badger Trust, Dr. Elaine King did that research three decades ago, as a pHD study. Sadly we have not managed to see a copy of it. Dr.Who?

 

[bactosoil]

The bacterium can survive for up to two years in damp, dark places - badger sets?- but is usually excreted by incontinent wildlife on our grassland. And UV light will zap it within a couple of hours.
The former boss of the Badger Trust, Dr. Elaine King did that research three decades ago, as a pHD study. Sadly we have not managed to see a copy of it. Dr.Who?

There is lots of hard science to support this from epidemiological modelling to the molecular mechanisms of bacterial persistence in environmental protozoa as well as being within macrophage and dendritich cells, once dormant within a host cell Btb can lay dormant virtually undetectable for years if not decades , the interesting bit is how and what triggers the dormacy to stop , none of the above goes against the approaches being used in combating Btb but maybe its another bit of the puzzle

 

[matthew]

There is lots of hard science to support this from epidemiological modelling to the molecular mechanisms of bacterial persistence in environmental protozoa as well as being within macrophage and dendritich cells, once dormant within a host cell Btb can lay dormant virtually undetectable for years if not decades , the interesting bit is how and what triggers the dormacy to stop , none of the above goes against the approaches being used in combating Btb but maybe another its another bit of the puzzle

There was one research study which looked at soil borne bacterium and blamed - earthworms for sustaining and so spreading problems too. For four days.

End of the Summer term.

It seems that around July and August every year, a raft of papers are produced, their authors gad off with buckets and spades, the BBC medi...

bovinetb.blogspot.com

But the simple fact is that when infectious badgers were removed, “no other contemporaneous change “ was identified which led to the complete reduction of z TB in cattle. Not 50 percent reduced, not 75 per cent but 100 percent. (Hansard)

 

[bactosoil]

There was one research study which looked at soil borne bacterium and blamed - earthworms for sustaining and so spreading problems too.

But the simple fact is that when infectious badgers were removed, “no other contemporaneous change “ was identified which led to the complete reduction of z TB in cattle. Not 50 percent reduced, not 75 per cent but 100 percent. (Hansard)

I cannot argue with the above and not trying to but it doesn't meant that there isnt a long term dormant reservoir still and probability mapping/risk scoring soils could be useful
Understanding how long term dormant bacteria awakes is a fascinating angle

 

[topground]

There was one research study which looked at soil borne bacterium and blamed - earthworms for sustaining and so spreading problems too. For four days.

End of the Summer term.

It seems that around July and August every year, a raft of papers are produced, their authors gad off with buckets and spades, the BBC medi...

bovinetb.blogspot.com

But the simple fact is that when infectious badgers were removed, “no other contemporaneous change “ was identified which led to the complete reduction of z TB in cattle. Not 50 percent reduced, not 75 per cent but 100 percent. (Hansard)

As happened with the Thornbury trial in the mid seventies. All badger setts were gassed using cymag . No other measures other than taking out badgers. No Tb for 10 years. I was a witness as a student.

 

[matthew]

I cannot argue with the above and not trying to but it doesn't meant that there isnt a long term dormant reservoir still and probability mapping/risk scoring soils could be useful
Understanding how long term dormant bacteria awakes is a fascinating angle

Fascinating it may be, but a straw man if you understand this tough bacterium.
And immaterial as far as the Hansard answers gave us.

 

[bactosoil]

Fascinating it may be, but a straw man if you understand this tough bacterium.
And immaterial as far as the Hansard answers gave us.

I have been lucky enough to have numerous discussions with leading proffessors who are involved in Btb in the uk and further afield , not one of them i have spoken to would rule out there being a longer term resevoir in the soil that doesnt counter
others work but purely adds to it , in fact a couple of proffessors have said to me that they have suggested many a time about a soil resevoir and hit walls to open minded thinking that is a big frustration to them .
Certainly from the early trials of risk scoring fields that i have seen there would appear to be some striking correlations ,with the work done not to rubbish other ideas but purely to add to well founded existing data and knowledge

 

[oilcan]

Over decades, unions and government (under pressure) have made zoonotic Tuberculosis 'livable with'.

We have signed international agreements to eradicate this grade 3 zoonosis from our cattle, and other countries, using the same primary test / slaughter of any reactors to it, have done so very successfully.
We alone in that exclusive club, refuse to countenance the iconic badger (huggers' words not mine) as playing any part in the cycle.

Thus an industry has evolved to protect this overgrown rat, and another industry to take live produce from farms under restriction. Calf units, fattening units and various coloured markets under Apha licences.. Not to mention the industry of cattle valuations in Wales. (not tabular averages as in England) and veterinary largesse from continuous testing cycles.

Vaccination of wild badgers has been sold as an alternative solution to farmers under the cosh of continuous restrictions. It is not. And neither is cattle vax, even with a flawed DIVA test. It's moonshine. And a pension for the Weybridge crew attempting to torture it into submission.

The out flow of zTB in other species (from badgers) is mainly unpublicised, but the disease is a serious concern in alpacas, sheep, pigs and companion mammals . Particularly cats. And horses get the disease too: found at slaughter and the offending carcase quietly binned.

Without control of this incontinent wild mammal, which decorates the Wildlife Trust's collection boxes so prettily, lvestock farmers on are on a hiding to nowhere.

But while farmers can still sell milk, meat and, even at a lower price, surplus stock, while (in Wales) being paid handsomely for reactors, sadly, I suspect they will put up with the 90 day testing.

I saw the programme too. The dairy farm and its occupants were immaculate. The W Trust woman an un challenged liar, when she posited that 80 per cent of cattle TB is cattle to cattle transmission.
She also rearranged some statisitcs to indicate fewer farms in Wales were under restriction - with no lethal invention on her stripey money pots.

That is deliberately confusing New Herd Incidents, with the Prevalence of zTB in Wales. That is, farms under continual restriction - as the dairy farm in the film. Taken logically, if all farms in Wales were under TB restriction, there would be NO new herd incidences. None. But the disease would still be there, and herds like the dairy herd featured would be testing every 90 days, and losing cattle.

The carefully modelled statistics would be good though.

Rant over.



.

Spot on.

 

[AGN76]

@matthew how long does it take for the bacterium to be killed when ensiled?

 

[matthew]

@matthew how long does it take for the bacterium to be killed when ensiled?

In a word, it doesn't.
M.bovis is a tough cookie to kill. It has a waxy jacket, is acid fast and likes water: only boiling (pasturisation of product) will kill it, plus, as I mentioned before, direct UV light.

If skittered across poorly made grass cut for hay etc. which is then dried a bit in cloudy conditions, it can potentially be a problem. But the powers that be tell me that any bacteria spread throughout a silage clamp, from ensiled longer grass wouldn't be a significant problem.

Badgers tend to like shorter pastures, and dung pats where cattle graze. So longer grass is not a favourite.