Welsh hill farmers feeling 'abandoned'

[Yale]

Alun Davies,the Welsh rural affairs minister has a large socialist chip on his shoulder and an obsession with righting the wrongs of Margaret Thatcher and the miners.He sees farmers as a soft target,tory voters who he can vent his anger on.

Is he fit for purpose,no.

 

[snowhite]

http://www.farmersguardian.com/home...s-£6m-fund-for-hard-hit-farmers/55319.article

The above might give you a clue as to why the Welsh hill farmers feel a little cheesed off with Mr Lochhead's counterpart. It's also Mr Davies's attitude which has really done it for many this time, I think.

As for the lack of any real plan for LFA's in Wales, I find this astounding given the acerage which actually falls within such a definition in our country. It's as if he's ensuring that Welsh hill and upland farmers are put firmly on the back foot. Not sure what he's trying to gain from it nor who he's having to listen to - he is completely adament that no LFA scheme will be rolled out. Generally, the UK Govt seems to be taking a similar line - we hate the CAP, it should not exist, but if it does exist we'll make sure that our farmers are put at as much of a disadvantage compared with their European counterparts as possible.

For me, this isn't about a whether payments should exist or not - that's a different argument and I'm sure we'd all love to see a properly functioning market - but this is more about the attitude and at times what seems like contempt shown towards the industry by those supposedly representing it.

there is all-so the thing we are not in charge of our industry governments intervene want farmers as ground-keepers ,food makers , want us to do all on below cost and bet us with the pac if we do it there was to help make up the shortfall that they put there by there melding , they want to keep the west in a way that when they wish to take a trip in june they can walk in the country side and look at the trees the old farmhouses and see farmers making hay with a fork , we are a photo they have in there heads and want us to fit into ,
farmers have being pushed into a country zoo and we are the animals , if you think you are the boss and running things the way you want it is time to wake up and smell the reality we work around the laws put in the way to make the best we can

 

[Cowabunga]

I don't understand this thread.

In the Autumn of 2010 we lost 20k worth of vegetables to early unexpected frost.

Last summer we lost perhaps 10K worth of vegetables to soaked ground.

Plenty this year have lost 100's thousands pounds worth of crops to flooding.

Sheep farmers who house ewes often get disease outbreaks that are expensive.

Most don't feel sorry for themselves they just get on with trying to earn some money to replace losses. Yorkshire hill farmers with large SFP seem rather upbeat at the moment, is there no SFP in Wales?

I agree. But most of the people concerned in them there hills will be rank socialists who support Plaid and therefore expect extra State aid as a right. I'm not against subsidies or grants to improve efficiency but aid such as asked for here just cannot and should not be given to businesses. As you say, arable farmers in many areas are even worse effected than hill farmers by the last 12 month's weather and they are sensible enough not to make fools of themselves by even asking. It is absolutely absurd and taking 'feather bedding' to a level that makes farmers look like pampered idiots.

Nearly said 'sorry' at the end there. But I'm not and it has to be said and I'm not a politician looking for votes or popularity, so I can say it as it is.

darfc.

 

[Cowabunga]

there is all-so the thing we are not in charge of our industry governments intervene want farmers as ground-keepers ,food makers , want us to do all on below cost and bet us with the pac if we do it there was to help make up the shortfall that they put there by there melding , they want to keep the west in a way that when they wish to take a trip in june they can walk in the country side and look at the trees the old farmhouses and see farmers making hay with a fork , we are a photo they have in there heads and want us to fit into ,
farmers have being pushed into a country zoo and we are the animals , if you think you are the boss and running things the way you want it is time to wake up and smell the reality we work around the laws put in the way to make the best we can

Farmers don't have to farm. They run a business like any other. It is up to politicians on behalf of the greater good to decide whether farmers are worth supporting generally and even whether they wish to have a reasonable supply of home grown food or whether the Country is better off importing it and throwing farmers to the same wolves as most other businesses and industries.

I maintain that farmers and food security are very important indeed to any country. But not at any cost without a line being drawn at some point.

 

[JohnGalway]

Farmers don't have to farm. They run a business like any other. It is up to politicians on behalf of the greater good to decide whether farmers are worth supporting generally and even whether they wish to have a reasonable supply of home grown food or whether the Country is better off importing it and throwing farmers to the same wolves as most other businesses and industries.

I maintain that farmers and food security are very important indeed to any country. But not at any cost without a line being drawn at some point.

Which side of the line do you fall?

 

[Yale]

Point is the Welsh assembly have held back millions of pounds of hill payment which they have decided not to pay out.Hill farmers in the rest of the UK have had this paid and it is in their bank accounts.

The money is there and they could have offered to cover the cost of removing the dead sheep as was done in other parts of the UK.

Its not the issue of farmers wanting compensation,its the fact that we are being disadvantaged by our government and rural affairs minister.

 

[snowhite]

Farmers don't have to farm. They run a business like any other. It is up to politicians on behalf of the greater good to decide whether farmers are worth supporting generally and even whether they wish to have a reasonable supply of home grown food or whether the Country is better off importing it and throwing farmers to the same wolves as most other businesses and industries.

I maintain that farmers and food security are very important indeed to any country. But not at any cost without a line being drawn at some point.

yes you are right quaker not one is made farm , but when they get involved in controlling our markets they have responsibility's and have to live up to them ,
when this financial down turn started there has being no help to farmers we the dairy farmers of france got 1 million of a loan between us , worked out to be 1.5k each , which not all could get in for so some of us had to do with out , but at the same time industry got 10 billion to build roads and other public works to put money turning , ( and i see nothing wrong with that ) and when the going was good the car industry got a hand out " not a loan " of 6k per worker and as well the gov backed the scrapage grant ,
so if they want to keep the little house on the hillside look alive and the garden of west Wales they will have to step in and help , or bite the bullet and plant that part of the country in trees , that might be the best thing to do than to be trying to support something that is not viable ,

 

[snowhite]

Which side of the line do you fall?

the less farmers the less tractor sales which in some ways would be a good thing for GDP as most tractors are imported from germany

 

[snowhite]

I agree. But most of the people concerned in them there hills will be rank socialists who support Plaid and therefore expect extra State aid as a right. I'm not against subsidies or grants to improve efficiency but aid such as asked for here just cannot and should not be given to businesses. As you say, arable farmers in many areas are even worse effected than hill farmers by the last 12 month's weather and they are sensible enough not to make fools of themselves by even asking. It is absolutely absurd and taking 'feather bedding' to a level that makes farmers look like pampered idiots.

Nearly said 'sorry' at the end there. But I'm not and it has to be said and I'm not a politician looking for votes or popularity, so I can say it as it is.

darfc.

if grants are given out there should be a return on investment ,this is only right as it is tax payers money , like the huge tax brakes industry gets and there is never a word about , but not alone do farmers pac get talked about all the time but there is openness as anybody can and do look up what individual farmers get , but this pac is less than 5% of European budget , there is not a word about the other 95%

 

[IANTO]

I don't understand this thread.

In the Autumn of 2010 we lost 20k worth of vegetables to early unexpected frost.

Last summer we lost perhaps 10K worth of vegetables to soaked ground.

Plenty this year have lost 100's thousands pounds worth of crops to flooding.

You are not comparing like with like. Arable farmers only lose a crop, and there is generally no additional cost involved disposing of it. It can simply be ploughed in as part of the annual cycle. If anything, as you have not taken a crop that year, you should in theory need less inputs the following year. Arable Farmers do not need to keep a breeding stock of Plants from year to year, they buy seed or plants which are readily available. I doubt if the losses experienced have made seed more expensive this year.

Sheep Farmers have not only lost a Crop of Lambs, but also their breeding stock of ewes (Capital Assets), which will have to be replaced. It is bad enough for those who farm enclosed areas in the uplands, as no doubt the cost of replacements will increase due to the losses. For those who run hefted flocks on common land, they cannot just go out and buy replacements. Building numbers back to their original level, means retaining ewe lambs. Depending on what percentage of the flock has been lost, and bearing in mind they will need to sell some to maintain an income, as farmers cannot live on SFP alone, this could mean a reduced income for several years.

They have also had to pay the costs of disposal which is estimated at a minimum of £25.00 per head.

Sheep farmers who house ewes often get disease outbreaks that are expensive.

Most don't feel sorry for themselves they just get on with trying to earn some money to replace losses. Yorkshire hill farmers with large SFP seem rather upbeat at the moment, is there no SFP in Wales?

The Welsh Sheep Farmers affected are not feeling sorry for themselves. Like Hill Farmers throughout the UK, they are a Hardy Breed, well used to dealing with the vagaries of weather, and anything else thrown at them.

What they are complaining about, is that they are being treated differently by the Welsh Assembly Government to every other Region in the UK.

England, Scotland and NI have made funds available - not Alun Davies.

 

[JohnGalway]

the less farmers the less tractor sales which in some ways would be a good thing for GDP as most tractors are imported from germany

I don't own a tractor and the only one in the family is an mf135. Prefer to send my money to Japan and the far east or Canada.

 

[SilliamWhale]

You are not comparing like with like. Arable farmers only lose a crop, and there is generally no additional cost involved disposing of it. It can simply be ploughed in as part of the annual cycle. If anything, as you have not taken a crop that year, you should in theory need less inputs the following year. Arable Farmers do not need to keep a breeding stock of Plants from year to year, they buy seed or plants which are readily available. I doubt if the losses experienced have made seed more expensive this year.

Sheep Farmers have not only lost a Crop of Lambs, but also their breeding stock of ewes (Capital Assets), which will have to be replaced. It is bad enough for those who farm enclosed areas in the uplands, as no doubt the cost of replacements will increase due to the losses. For those who run hefted flocks on common land, they cannot just go out and buy replacements. Building numbers back to their original level, means retaining ewe lambs. Depending on what percentage of the flock has been lost, and bearing in mind they will need to sell some to maintain an income, as farmers cannot live on SFP alone, this could mean a reduced income for several years.

They have also had to pay the costs of disposal which is estimated at a minimum of £25.00 per head.




The Welsh Sheep Farmers affected are not feeling sorry for themselves. Like Hill Farmers throughout the UK, they are a Hardy Breed, well used to dealing with the vagaries of weather, and anything else thrown at them.

What they are complaining about, is that they are being treated differently by the Welsh Assembly Government to every other Region in the UK.

England, Scotland and NI have made funds available - not Alun Davies.

Not sure that makes any difference. Arable farmer has to invest the same amount the next year whatever losses were made. And of course pay for the costs of the poor yields. That's how he sets his business up. I don't see how the government can be expected to give money to build up assets. Farmer has to take it on the chin and carry on - its crap but that's the way it goes. Snow falls on hills, and one in twenty it will fall badly on hills.

 

[IANTO]

I agree. But most of the people concerned in them there hills will be rank socialists who support Plaid and therefore expect extra State aid as a right.

A Duck-sh!t post if ever I saw one, with no basis in fact.

The results of the last Welsh Assembly Elections for those constituencies who did not elect a labour member, as shown on the map, I posted earlier in this thread were:

Liberals 44883
Conservative 95841
Plaid Cymru 84630
Labour 69731
Others 5483

Total 300568

Farmers traditionally vote Liberal or Conservative, while the Plaid Cymru vote comes mainly from middle class intellectuals and the professional classes.

Cardiganshire although electing a Plaid Cymru Member Elin Jones, who was the best Agricultural Minister The Welsh Government has had, still had over 10,000 who voted Liberal. These were I understand concentrated in North Cardiganshire, where Geraint Howells, Farmer and former MP had his power base. One of the areas affected by the snow, and who suffered losses.

In the past, depending on where I lived, and where I believed my vote would do most good, and keep Labour out, I have voted, Conservative, Liberal and Plaid Cymru. If I lived in Ceredigion at the time of the last election, I would have voted for Elin Jones. As I was in Preseli, I voted for the Conservative Paul Davies. I am a tactical voter, and my list vote was for Plaid Cymru, hoping that they would have sufficient members to stop Labour being able to govern alone, and have another coalition. If that had happened, we would probably by now have a Badger Cull, instead of giving them expensive "vitamin" injections.

I'm not against subsidies or grants to improve efficiency but aid such as asked for here just cannot and should not be given to businesses. As you say, arable farmers in many areas are even worse effected than hill farmers by the last 12 month's weather and they are sensible enough not to make fools of themselves by even asking. It is absolutely absurd and taking 'feather bedding' to a level that makes farmers look like pampered idiots.

Nearly said 'sorry' at the end there. But I'm not and it has to be said and I'm not a politician looking for votes or popularity, so I can say it as it is.

darfc.[/quote]

As I said in a previous post, it is not about asking for a hand-out and I would emphasise I am not personally affected, but having equal treatment with other regions of the UK, to ensure that Welsh Hill Farming remains competitive.

HMG hands out aid to Banks and other sectors. It reduces the Top Rate of Tax for High Earners. It freezes inheritance tax, which has minimal effect in percentage terms on the wealthiest 5%, but has a disproportionate effect on the retired farmer, who has sold up, and moved to a bungalow.

Who are the pampered idiots.

 

[IANTO]

Farmer has to take it on the chin and carry on - its crap but that's the way it goes. Snow falls on hills, and one in twenty it will fall badly on hills.

I agree with the principle. The argument, is about why Welsh Farmers thanks to Alun "Tosser" Davies, a career politician if ever there was one, are the only ones having to take it on the chin, and bear all the losses themselves.

This is not true of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, or the Isle of Man, who have all put some kind of Aid Package in place.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I agree with the principle. The argument, is about why Welsh Farmers thanks to Alun "Tosser" Davies, a career politician if ever there was one, are the only ones having to take it on the chin, and bear all the losses themselves.

This is not true of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, or the Isle of Man, who have all put some kind of Aid Package in place.

I can't really answer that. I don't know what exact help they got in the other areas. Depends on what the aid package is i guess.

 

[RJ1]

I can't really answer that. I don't know what exact help they got in the other areas. Depends on what the aid package is i guess.

£6 million In Scotland, see the article in my post above.

I agree entirely with Ianto that the issue here is parity with the other regions. The problem is that those asking used the word "compensation" - dirty word since its use in no win no fee cases etc - and that was PR suicide. Phrasing it better and getting the message of requesting parity with the other regions would have come across far better.

 

[bracken basher]

A reply from Alun Davies has been printed in todays Daily Post.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/alun-davies-am---seen-3319247

 

[Cowabunga]

£6 million In Scotland, see the article in my post above.

I agree entirely with Ianto that the issue here is parity with the other regions. The problem is that those asking used the word "compensation" - dirty word since its use in no win no fee cases etc - and that was PR suicide. Phrasing it better and getting the message of requesting parity with the other regions would have come across far better.

I agree in the PR aspect of their request.
However, Welsh farmers have a devolved system where the local Welsh administration has power over how recources are allocated, for better or worse. Often it has been for the better but this time it involves a disparity. No doubt that as long as the present administration stays in power we should expect more disadvantage to Welsh farmers but more money to 'rural development' other than farming. What this means on the ground in rural areas is that jobs for the boyos in the civil service and all local and regional government spending comes before existing rural industry and agriculture. As Ianto has pointed out, virtually all labour support and its Assembly members and MP's come from the very industrial and urban areas. Some Labour MP's and Assembly Members are absolutely anti-farming, make no mistake about it.

 

[snowhite]

in other words it is tough sh1t guys ,

 

[Cowabunga]

A reply from Alun Davies has been printed in todays Daily Post.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/alun-davies-am---seen-3319247

What does "more resilience" mean? That farming should be more profitable? Or that farmers should stop bitching and wanting handouts?