Welsh Ploughing Results

[Ley253]

Sorry should have made it clear about the holiday bit was not having a go at the ploughmen

On reflection I am not that concerned about the world match as I have little interest in the world style events other than the few guys I know who plough in it.

It's nice to know how they got on
As my post above also should have pointed out that all costs should be met by the team why should the competitors have to fund the cost this perhaps would encourage others to enter I often wonder if the winners at the national are based around the willingness and ability to travel to the worlds

As for the plots and pictures the better men should cope with the bad plots easier than a lesser man can.

Look at some of the scores nr the bottom these guys probably would not win a local match never mind a world match so in effect you only have 2/3rds of the field to beat.

I will never be good enough to represent England but can see as others can that the current system is not working

Make it compulsory for qualifying for the national this will at least make the world style guys enter local matches

Take cruckton match last year a qualifying match for vintage but no world style conventional entries and only 3 reversible ploughman

Where,s the talent pool going to come from in the future?.

Qualification for the national was in force years ago, at least, that was the idea. In fact it was often a nomination system. Many affiliated societies had no one who wanted to go, or didnt run a qualifying match. A phone call earned you the place! If that failed, Form your own society, affiliate, and send your self! Yes that was done.
The nomination system now in place does do a bit towards keeping up standards, societies dont want to send " lesser lights," as it reflects on them.
Another reason for the lowering of skill level, is the lack of rule enforcement, one of the best younger ploughmen in the south, cannot keep his hands off his work. gamesmanship, is the cry,really? Cheating is my answer! But that aside, he is not learning how to make the plough do the job, and when he gets to the top, is at a disadvantage.
Another requirement is much better judging.

 

[ploughman1963]

I believe anybody can enter the world style classes at the British National no matter what there nationality or were they permanently reside, same goes for the vintage and classic classes but that have to be the highest placed competitor at a qualifier match who hasn't already qualified already.

Oh no! Most recently, and least contentious, was Malcolm Taylor, New Zealand champion was over here a few years back and wanted to compete - he was only allowed to plough as a 'guest' and was made to plough with the YFC class, judged seperately and not eligible for plough off. Ronnie Coulter from NI, a UK citizen has tried for years to attend but KC made it a personal vendetta that he should not. Very short sighted IMO, the more, and harder the competition the better!

 

[arcobob]

So, the most important people pay! The stones were known about, but didnt matter!(to the organisers)How on earth does that make it right? The land is the same for them all, but subject to the luck of the draw? One or the other please! As things are, they would hold the match on a landfill site! Oh hang on that was done nr Litchfield I think, though only for the national.
Utopia would be a designated site, can you help, Mr Dyson? All major sporting events manage this, F1 Silverstone, Tennis, Wimbledon etc etc.

This business about luck of the draw is a myth when related to our nationals. Firstly there is no draw and secondly is this to be a match or an acknowledged lottery if there were ?

 

[Lurker]

Very short sighted IMO, the more, and harder the competition the better!

I fully agree it the only way to improve by competing against the best, stiffer competition make you work twice as hard and if you don't get through to the plough offs you can try an observe and learn from the headland.

The reason I thought ploughers from other countries could compete in world style was didn't J.Sivewright from Scotland complete in the world style a few years ago or have I got that wrong perhaps.

But getting back to your point, I believe now at the Scottish any plougher regardless of the country can compete to become class and overall vintage champion for vintage trailed, vintage lift and also classic, although the have stuck with the same old system for world style conventional and reversible where visitors can compete on the first day but cannot go through to the plough off but get to compete against each other in a visitors class which is why I nobody makes the effort to go up there as you'd want to be able to compete for the Scottish title not for a visitors title, which I'm surprised that hasn't been opened up too as from what I've heard from different sources it's created mixed feelings with a good proportion of the vintage and classic competitors it stands smacks a bit of double standards on one hand where some welcome the challenge and think world style should be the same and others well they want to have the same rules as per the Scottish world style with a vistors class for vintage & classic.

The only thing for sure is somebody will always complain about something.

 

[Ley253]

Scotts and Welsh can compete in the British National, but its the highest placed Englishman who is chosen to attend the World.Not in my view a good idea, as by ploughing on the first day, they can keep an Englishman out of the final. I believe that it would be possible for them to plough on the first day, and if in a qualifying position be seeded into the final, thus making sure that there were the full ten places available for the English competitors.This would entail space for a few extra plots to be made available for the plough off, not really a problem, as the area required to run the match must be much smaller now, compared to the times when the World style had over eighty entries!

 

[arcobob]

Scotts and Welsh can compete in the British National, but its the highest placed Englishman who is chosen to attend the World.Not in my view a good idea, as by ploughing on the first day, they can keep an Englishman out of the final. I believe that it would be possible for them to plough on the first day, and if in a qualifying position be seeded into the final, thus making sure that there were the full ten places available for the English competitors.This would entail space for a few extra plots to be made available for the plough off, not really a problem, as the area required to run the match must be much smaller now, compared to the times when the World style had over eighty entries!

That is a start Harry but you and I know where the real problems lie and they will never be addressed until this sport dies on its feet and that won`t be long.

 

[ploughman61]

That is a start Harry but you and I know where the real problems lie and they will never be addressed until this sport dies on its feet and that won`t be long.

And those real problems are why we can't win the worlds

 

[Ley253]

And those real problems are why we can't win the worlds

Politics aside, Our entrant at York won the stubble section, and with a better grass start would have been overall champion. That being the case, it shows that we can win. having seen photographs of the practise plots, our entrants grass work was outstanding, but as said, those plots were far superior to the match offerings.I will not be at all surprised to find that plot standard differed widely, making the contests a lottery, rather than a test of skill. The fact that the winner scored highly on stubble, but fell away badly on the grass, bears this out. He is a competitor of long standing, and I dont think his skills deserted him!
Sow`s ears do not silk purses make, however clever you are!

 

[Fergie Ploughman]

Not sure what to think on this.... I've stood (in awe) and watched Dave Chappel, and Ashley plough for that matter and they're both absolutely superb. Do we think these guys are any less skilled than those from around the world ? I'm kinda' thinking they're not (but I'm not best placed to comment). There is so much luck involved in ploughing at that level, one little slip up and you've blown it. If lady luck is on your side and its your kinda' soil and you get a good plot, then you may win. They pretty much all use the same ploughs now don't they (with a tweak here and there)?

I love world style ploughing and yes, I could afford the kit, but what stops me (apart from the Mrs' might not be happy me spending that sort of wedge on a fancy tractor and plough!) is that I plough for some fun and the fun bit isn't burning diesel travelling hundreds of miles to get to matches, its the ploughing bit and using the old tractor....there are simply not enough world style matches around me, and if there are they only have a couple of entrants. Compare that to vintage, most matches are like ploughing at the national, its the same 3/4/5 faces at a lot of the matches...and in my case often the same one winning all the time! The classes are always full and you have to be good to get anywhere.

There's lots of great ideas about you could do things, but its just going to come back to skill and luck on the day isn't it ? Plus its a once a yr chance to actually go to the worlds, never mind compete in it! The other thing is, how much effort "should" we put into it ? its ploughing...not football or cricket, its not exactly a high profile sport. Someone has to fund it all, unsure where the money comes from, the SOP has lots of it, but I'm not sure all the members would be happy if it was all blown on sending two blokes to the world match.

 

[Ley253]

Not sure what to think on this.... I've stood (in awe) and watched Dave Chappel, and Ashley plough for that matter and they're both absolutely superb. Do we think these guys are any less skilled than those from around the world ? I'm kinda' thinking they're not (but I'm not best placed to comment). There is so much luck involved in ploughing at that level, one little slip up and you've blown it. If lady luck is on your side and its your kinda' soil and you get a good plot, then you may win. They pretty much all use the same ploughs now don't they (with a tweak here and there)?

I love world style ploughing and yes, I could afford the kit, but what stops me (apart from the Mrs' might not be happy me spending that sort of wedge on a fancy tractor and plough!) is that I plough for some fun and the fun bit isn't burning diesel travelling hundreds of miles to get to matches, its the ploughing bit and using the old tractor....there are simply not enough world style matches around me, and if there are they only have a couple of entrants. Compare that to vintage, most matches are like ploughing at the national, its the same 3/4/5 faces at a lot of the matches...and in my case often the same one winning all the time! The classes are always full and you have to be good to get anywhere.

There's lots of great ideas about you could do things, but its just going to come back to skill and luck on the day isn't it ? Plus its a once a yr chance to actually go to the worlds, never mind compete in it! The other thing is, how much effort "should" we put into it ? its ploughing...not football or cricket, its not exactly a high profile sport. Someone has to fund it all, unsure where the money comes from, the SOP has lots of it, but I'm not sure all the members would be happy if it was all blown on sending two blokes to the world match.

No need to spend on a flash tractor, if it can lift the plough and pull it, that should do. The late Doug Cross used his KV behind a grey/gold, and a B250. Plough likewise can be home built, or developed, and world style are no more expensive than a TS 86 these (crazy) days! Lack of matches is a problem,and not getting any better, mind you some societies dont help the situation by having a min number before they will run a class. One up your way will turn away two ploughmen because one more is needed! That wont promote the class, or encourage entrants.

 

[Lurker]

Not sure what to think on this.... I've stood (in awe) and watched Dave Chappel, and Ashley plough for that matter and they're both absolutely superb. Do we think these guys are any less skilled than those from around the world ? I'm kinda' thinking they're not (but I'm not best placed to comment). There is so much luck involved in ploughing at that level, one little slip up and you've blown it. If lady luck is on your side and its your kinda' soil and you get a good plot, then you may win. They pretty much all use the same ploughs now don't they (with a tweak here and there)?

I love world style ploughing and yes, I could afford the kit, but what stops me (apart from the Mrs' might not be happy me spending that sort of wedge on a fancy tractor and plough!) is that I plough for some fun and the fun bit isn't burning diesel travelling hundreds of miles to get to matches, its the ploughing bit and using the old tractor....there are simply not enough world style matches around me, and if there are they only have a couple of entrants. Compare that to vintage, most matches are like ploughing at the national, its the same 3/4/5 faces at a lot of the matches...and in my case often the same one winning all the time! The classes are always full and you have to be good to get anywhere.

As far as luck goes well luck of draw for plot I agree but after that its down to your skill and experience of getting the best of out of kit to match the condition that not luck, as for one slip up and you've blown it that's just down to lack of ability to maintain concentration on what your are doing and is human error not luck, sometimes things don't go to plan or go your way but that's because of you and you have to be able to accept and learn from it and move on.

As for world style around the old phrase "Build it and they will come" springs to mind and I don't mean the matches to create a class for nobody to enter, tell them you're planning to go world style some of these matches will start a class and talk with other as you see there may well be another 3 or 5 people thinking the same thing and if there is a desire for a class to be created most will as they would be only to happy encourage a bold move by a few.

 

[ploughman61]

No need to spend on a flash tractor, if it can lift the plough and pull it, that should do. The late Doug Cross used his KV behind a grey/gold, and a B250. Plough likewise can be home built, or developed, and world style are no more expensive than a TS 86 these (crazy) days! Lack of matches is a problem,and not getting any better, mind you some societies dont help the situation by having a min number before they will run a class. One up your way will turn away two ploughmen because one more is needed! That wont promote the class, or encourage entrants.

Uttoxeter have world style class on 14th September, as do lichfield or west hallam next day so come along for the weekend, also have horticultural ploughing & 7 teams of houses ploughing.

 

[Ley253]

As far as luck goes well luck of draw for plot I agree but after that its down to your skill and experience of getting the best of out of kit to match the condition that not luck, as for one slip up and you've blown it that's just down to lack of ability to maintain concentration on what your are doing and is human error not luck, sometimes things don't go to plan or go your way but that's because of you and you have to be able to accept and learn from it and move on.

As for world style around the old phrase "Build it and they will come" springs to mind and I don't mean the matches to create a class for nobody to enter, tell them you're planning to go world style some of these matches will start a class and talk with other as you see there may well be another 3 or 5 people thinking the same thing and if there is a desire for a class to be created most will as they would be only to happy encourage a bold move by a few.

Sorry, cant agree with the first point.A man with a plot full of ruts, stones etc is never going to beat a man of similar ability ploughing one which is level and stone free. The one slip may not be a lack of concentration, unless that is, you can see beneath the surface and avoid the old horse shoe, drystone wall or bit of angle iron hiding there! Most top World style men are of similar standard, with similar kit, and plots do matter!
Point two is open to debate. In Fergys area there are some good world style ploughmen, who are known to one local society, but unless three enter, the class will not be run. That being the case, these men go further afield and stay away, supporting societies which support their style of work. The match loses entrants, ploughmen end up with more expense. Poss converts like F are put off, and another poss world match competitor is lost.

 

[Dealer]

Plots luck of the draw wrong soil everything but the man on the seat

How do stones effect all aspects of the plot?

Yes you might have a hole in your crown or a lump in your work what about the other aspects

Have not studied the scores much but

None of the english guys finished in the top 4 so how many points did the bad plot cost?

I am not having ago at the guys as such just trying to dispel ley254 reasons for the poor performance

Give richard Ingram a world style outfit and 2 years and see what happens

As said before unless the class gets more competitive then the best only have to do enough to win and qualify for the worlds

As for matches not excepting small entries

It's up to them but I would say come along but, don't expect a judge and certainly doing expect a cup or prize money

Why should the other classes subsidies prize money for small fields

The sop should be working harder to get more competitors if they want to grow the class.

 

[Ley253]

Plots luck of the draw wrong soil everything but the man on the seat

How do stones effect all aspects of the plot?

Yes you might have a hole in your crown or a lump in your work what about the other aspects

Have not studied the scores much but

None of the english guys finished in the top 4 so how many points did the bad plot cost?

I am not having ago at the guys as such just trying to dispel ley254 reasons for the poor performance

Give richard Ingram a world style outfit and 2 years and see what happens

As said before unless the class gets more competitive then the best only have to do enough to win and qualify for the worlds

As for matches not excepting small entries

It's up to them but I would say come along but, doing expect a judge and certainly doing except a cup of prize money

Why should the other classes subsidies prize money for small fields

The sop should be working harder to get more competitors if they want to grow the class.

perhaps not all, but certainly most, uniformaty, firmness seed bed opening split and finish general appearance are all altered by even a few stones and/ or ruts throwing plough about, and in such a tight scoring regime as used at the world, one point is a significant loss. Do you expect a man ploughing a plot where a straw rick stood over winter , or by the gateway where the grain trailers ran, to be on a level starting point with someone without these "added extras"?
Neither of us were there, I have studied such photos as I could find, and one of Davids grass practise plot showed a faultless example of the art, I have not seen any of identifiable match plots, and so will wait till more information is forthcoming, but I cant believe that there is no outside effect. AM senior was way in front on the first day, but fell away badly on the second. Are you saying that he lost his skill? Or could there indeed be an outside effect, which was beyond his control?

 

[Mydexta]

perhaps not all, but certainly most, uniformaty, firmness seed bed opening split and finish general appearance are all altered by even a few stones and/ or ruts throwing plough about, and in such a tight scoring regime as used at the world, one point is a significant loss. Do you expect a man ploughing a plot where a straw rick stood over winter , or by the gateway where the grain trailers ran, to be on a level starting point with someone without these "added extras"?
Neither of us were there, I have studied such photos as I could find, and one of Davids grass practise plot showed a faultless example of the art, I have not seen any of identifiable match plots, and so will wait till more information is forthcoming, but I cant believe that there is no outside effect. AM senior was way in front on the first day, but fell away badly on the second. Are you saying that he lost his skill? Or could there indeed be an outside effect, which was beyond his control?

Eammon Tracey was well back the order after day 1 in stubble, but clawed a lot back in day 2 on grass

Horses for courses

 

[Ley253]

Eammon Tracey was well back the order after day 1 in stubble, but clawed a lot back in day 2 on grass

Horses for courses

I cant agree. Both Andrew and he are constantly at the top, to do that they have to be top in both types of work. I feel that again there was an outside influence at work.

 

[Dealer]

It's no good having a perfect practice plot
If you can't replicate it

I don't win many matches but now and again I do, not very often I beat the top men in fact probably never, but the one thing I never do is blame my plot,
I have looked at the scores and our man was 70 + points behind the winner over 2 days our we saying he was given bad plots both days?

I am not doubting his ability but he has represented us more than once and not won.

He must draw lots of poor plots

I stand by my original statement that until the class gets more competitive then we will be left behind.

 

[ploughman1963]

Building numbers - when my son and I started reversible ploughing there were not many matches about for our reversible class but our gang of four or five used to ring up the match organisers and ask if they would have room for us. We werent interested in prize money/cups just plots. Very often we would even mark our own plots as people werent used to the measurements. We even started putting on our own matches, (open to all classes), to fill the calendar. Fergy said above that its only ploughing - but when I take on a hobby/interest, I dont want to be dipping in and out, I want to be competing every day possible. When its over, its over - move on to something else - hence I dont compete now.
So, competitive classes can be built even with a few competitors - if they are committed. World style and reversible are not for everyone and are expensive - transport costs are the killer, requiring investment in lorries etc.

There can be an element of luck when it comes to plots and such events have potentially cost me international successes - BUT - people like Andrew Mitchell, Thomas Cochrane, Dave Wright, John Whelan, very rarely suffer bad luck - their skill (and experience) shine through and they avoid/are prepared for, the problem that mere mortals like me get hit with. This comes back to my point earlier that to get to the top, you have to compete against the very best (although Andrew Mitchell is the exception - but he is just something else!) and that means ploughing against the Irish and ploughing as many plots as you can.

I have been lucky enough to plough at International matches a couple of times and until you have been there, you do not appreciate the level of politics and gamesmanship that goes on. I will not put on open forum what I have observed myself but suffice to say, on a two day event, I have seen a strategy of countries doing their best to ensure that competitors who are a threat to their own man after day one get marked down on day two. Dont forget, at this level a poor score, perhaps just 2 points, on one element can be enough to knock you back to 6th or 7th and out of contention. Each country supplies a judge and judges from some countries are there merely as a jolly and wouldnt know one end of the plot from another. These judges are usually paired with experienced judges and are easily influenced. A judge cant score the competitor from his own country but sure as hell, he can influence a low score for a competitor from another country.

 

[Ley253]

Building numbers - when my son and I started reversible ploughing there were not many matches about for our reversible class but our gang of four or five used to ring up the match organisers and ask if they would have room for us. We werent interested in prize money/cups just plots. Very often we would even mark our own plots as people werent used to the measurements. We even started putting on our own matches, (open to all classes), to fill the calendar. Fergy said above that its only ploughing - but when I take on a hobby/interest, I dont want to be dipping in and out, I want to be competing every day possible. When its over, its over - move on to something else - hence I dont compete now.
So, competitive classes can be built even with a few competitors - if they are committed. World style and reversible are not for everyone and are expensive - transport costs are the killer, requiring investment in lorries etc.

There can be an element of luck when it comes to plots and such events have potentially cost me international successes - BUT - people like Andrew Mitchell, Thomas Cochrane, Dave Wright, John Whelan, very rarely suffer bad luck - their skill (and experience) shine through and they avoid/are prepared for, the problem that mere mortals like me get hit with. This comes back to my point earlier that to get to the top, you have to compete against the very best (although Andrew Mitchell is the exception - but he is just something else!) and that means ploughing against the Irish and ploughing as many plots as you can.

I have been lucky enough to plough at International matches a couple of times and until you have been there, you do not appreciate the level of politics and gamesmanship that goes on. I will not put on open forum what I have observed myself but suffice to say, on a two day event, I have seen a strategy of countries doing their best to ensure that competitors who are a threat to their own man after day one get marked down on day two. Dont forget, at this level a poor score, perhaps just 2 points, on one element can be enough to knock you back to 6th or 7th and out of contention. Each country supplies a judge and judges from some countries are there merely as a jolly and wouldnt know one end of the plot from another. These judges are usually paired with experienced judges and are easily influenced. A judge cant score the competitor from his own country but sure as hell, he can influence a low score for a competitor from another country.

You did the same as we did for the vintage classes, at first we had to beg for plots. Now its the strongest class. Transport should not be such a burden, my lorry costs much less to tax and insure than my car, but its elderly, and far from flash. That may not appeal to some. Main transport problem is the driving licence required, the cost of obtaining that is way over the top.
It is interesting to note that Andrew does in fact plough against many of those who our rep competes against, so that shows the competition aspect is there as is a similar standard.
To conclude, for those who admit to rarely winning to feel able to criticise those who rarely loose, is beyond belief!