Whaley Bridge Evacaution - Toddbrook Reservoir

[Drillman]

I read that fire brigade are pumping water out. Would they not be better off getting a few slurry pump contractors in as I bet there pumps are bigger or is that just too simple?

 

[Lincs Lass]

I think the idea will be to stop the soil bank bursting open now it has been thinned down, did worry me that dropping 4Tonnes from height at once on it, just might rupture it anyway mini earthquake style, but it looks like its ok-ish now.

My thinking was that if there are any fractures inside under water that may have developed will only get bigger and once it breaks through ,no matter how much they have dropped in the hole ,the increasing force will wash everything out and once it starts to cut the bank away ,nothing will stop it ,,its nearly a remake of the the Dambusters film ,here's hoping it doesn't

 

[RushesToo]

The Dam is like cement silage wall. It is loaded to full height one side and higher. The other side is empty.
How would you stabilise it? - you would put silage in the other side of the wall.

This is what the Chinooks are doing. They don't drop from a height as they might fracture the wall.

 

[Lincsman]

My thinking was that if there are any fractures inside under water that may have developed will only get bigger and once it breaks through ,no matter how much they have dropped in the hole ,the increasing force will wash everything out and once it starts to cut the bank away ,nothing will stop it ,,its nearly a remake of the the Dambusters film ,here's hoping it doesn't

The damage is simply water getting under the concrete slabs and washing soil away when it was over-spilling, all down to the seal between each slab failing really.

 

[holywell farmer]

I seen pictures off broken concrete why is there no re bar?

 

[chaffcutter]

Built in the 1860’s I think, pre rebar use?

 

[RushesToo]

I seen pictures off broken concrete why is there no re bar?

Because the concrete is only to smooth surface for the water to run over. It was not intended to have structural integrity. It turned out it needed it. The concrete was only intended to make the flow of water smooth.

Now into guessing rather than knowledge, too much water causes turbulence this makes the structure need load bearing characteristics.

• Either there was too much water = turbulence = breaking the joints . Note they dug out the other dam exit to increase flow away from the spillway
• The concrete did what it was meant to do but poor maintenance caused water in between the slabs to wash away the supporting undersoil
• The concrete got old and weakened

It was probably some of all the above.

 

[Steevo]

Built in the 1860’s I think, pre rebar use?

The concrete isn’t 1860s though. Someone said spillway was added in the 70s.

 

[holywell farmer]

Because the concrete is only to smooth surface for the water to run over. It was not intended to have structural integrity. It turned out it needed it. The concrete was only intended to make the flow of water smooth.

Now into guessing rather than knowledge, too much water causes turbulence this makes the structure need load bearing characteristics.

• Either there was too much water = turbulence = breaking the joints . Note they dug out the other dam exit to increase flow away from the spillway
• The concrete did what it was meant to do but poor maintenance caused water in between the slabs to wash away the supporting undersoil
• The concrete got old and weakened

It was probably some of all the above.

Any slab needs strength to it,

 

[RushesToo]

Any slab needs strength to it,

Two things:
If it had been rebar'ed then the dam might have failed without knowledge. It could have been entirely eaten away underneath by water and the rebar concrete only failing when the dam did. This would not be good.

Not a challenge, I just think this was the design.

 

[Muck Spreader]

Think you may have your facts wrong there. As far as I know it had nothing to do with North West Water it was owned by British Waterways as its always been a reservoir to feed the adjacent canal. British Waterways then became the Canel and River Trust who have screwed and upset loads of canal boaters me being one of them. As for the spillway you just have to look at the video of the water flowing over it to notice trees are actually growing on the spillway which is typical of the canal and river trust lack of care of a national asset.

Yes you are right, it was British Waterways who were responsible for the dam and they carried out half a million of repair work in 2011 on it. My brother has a raceway going though his land, but this is to do with the Goyt dams not Toddbrook and the inspections and maintenance was moved from NWW to the Canal and River trust which he says has just stopped doing any maintenance despite it running above his house with the flood risk as they don't have any money.

 

[renewablejohn]

Yes you are right, it was British Waterways who were responsible for the dam and they carried out half a million of repair work in 2011 on it. My brother has a raceway going though his land, but this is to do with the Goyt dams not Toddbrook and the inspections and maintenance was moved from NWW to the Canal and River trust which he says has just stopped doing any maintenance despite it running above his house with the flood risk as they don't have any money.

Hope the lack of maintenance by the Canal and River Trust is documented as the primary cause and that heads roll within that organisation. I see on the news this morning that others have spotted the trees growing on the spillway.

 

[Muck Spreader]

Hope the lack of maintenance by the Canal and River Trust is documented as the primary cause and that heads roll within that organisation. I see on the news this morning that others have spotted the trees growing on the spillway.

But a budget of £200 million doesn't sound a lot for for managing and maintaining 2000 miles of canals, rivers, dames etc. IMO moving British waterways into this trust was a way of the government offloading a problem, a sort of aquatic National Trust.

 

[Forever Fendt]

There is a local one here just over the border In Nottinghamshire and one section of the spill wall looks to have moved and come forward a bit I will try and get a picture later today when I am going that way

 

[Forever Fendt]

Correct me if I'm wrong but,the raf are dumping sand bags on the damaged area,, now I'm no engineer but 200 tns on the outside is not going to stop a million tons of water pushing at it if it breaks through

Perhaps it’s big bags of Radweld

 

[dowcow]

I read that fire brigade are pumping water out. Would they not be better off getting a few slurry pump contractors in as I bet there pumps are bigger or is that just too simple?

BBC website quoted the fire brigade as saying they had 7 large pumps on it, altogether pumping 5 ton of water a minute. They were setting up another 5 pumps. So our old slurry pump would have beaten the current setup on a mere 100hp tractor. I saw a super massive Storth pump at a show last year that made ours look like a toy, and was obviously designed for way over 200hp. Why the hell the emergency services/ environment agency don't have quick access to large scale emergency pumping equipment, or the phone number of contractors who do, is beyond me. Probably something to do with certification or something.

The other thing is that the fire brigade don't send an invoice for their services. Slurry contractors do.

 

[renewablejohn]

BBC website quoted the fire brigade as saying they had 7 large pumps on it, altogether pumping 5 ton of water a minute. They were setting up another 5 pumps. So our old slurry pump would have beaten the current setup on a mere 100hp tractor. I saw a super massive Storth pump at a show last year that made ours look like a toy, and was obviously designed for way over 200hp. Why the hell the emergency services/ environment agency don't have quick access to large scale emergency pumping equipment, or the phone number of contractors who do, is beyond me. Probably something to do with certification or something.

The other thing is that the fire brigade don't send an invoice for their services. Slurry contractors do.

I think that is sloppy reporting by the BBC as each pump is likely to be 5 ton of water per minute. I know the EA was worklng with there own trailed pumps quoted at 7 tons per minute.

 

[JCMaloney]

You can`t pump the water out too fast because it has to go somewhere........................ slow & steady wins the race.

 

[JP1]

BBC website quoted the fire brigade as saying they had 7 large pumps on it, altogether pumping 5 ton of water a minute. They were setting up another 5 pumps. So our old slurry pump would have beaten the current setup on a mere 100hp tractor. I saw a super massive Storth pump at a show last year that made ours look like a toy, and was obviously designed for way over 200hp. Why the hell the emergency services/ environment agency don't have quick access to large scale emergency pumping equipment, or the phone number of contractors who do, is beyond me. Probably something to do with certification or something.

The other thing is that the fire brigade don't send an invoice for their services. Slurry contractors do.

I don't disbelieve you on the metrics but most of those pod based pumps on demount gear on the MAN 6 and 8 wheelers you see around the country belong to HMG and are strategic civil defence placement not the individual fire authorities. Seeing how big the boxes are , I'm surprised the capacity is so low

The fire authorities do invoice for their work in these circumstances

 

[Bobthebuilder]

Heard the RAF on the news earlier talking about this.

“It’s a high precision job. We’re being asked to drop them in centimetre square areas”

Now I’m no chopper pilot but that sounded rather a ridiculous attempt to blow their own trumpet to me. Dropping a dumpy bag from height with centimetre precision...?!

from the clip i saw on tv they were doing a pretty damn good job of dropping 2 tons at a time very accurately, also chopper never flinched after dropping 2 ton each time