what are rules using red diesel in tractor when it should be white?

[Cowcalf]

The system I mentioned had a complete purge system built in, but vosa were not interested

cannot see what it is to do with Vosa, surely its a HMRC issue ?

 

[wilber]

@Kevtherev @llamedos
I think this deserves a thread of its own.

As for the copper, PC Colin Astley, he is well known for stopping anything agricultural and making up offences on the spot as the above clearly demonstrates. His reputation is legendary, this does not surprise me one bit. What does surprise me is that complaints haven't been made (perhaps they have) and that he's allowed to use his position in what seems like a vendetta against farmers.

Mr Astley and Mr Yorke are good friends .

 

[Wombat]

Yes to the first bit. Quite a few dealers use a low loader to deliver machines also, it’s clearly haulage. Most new tractors and combines actually have white in the tank from the factory, my new combine ( 5 years ago ) did.
Going to the dealers with your tractor to collect a machine for use on your farm is ok on red as is taking your tractor to the dealer to be repaired or serviced.

A lot of manufacturers only put white in the tank for testing at production as red is illegal in a number of countries in the EU in a tractor so the don't want to leave any red in there and have customers in these countries getting a fine

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

Also, be aware that in the past I have seen webpages from what are basically police forums and there were numerous individuals on them who stated they were deliberately out the looking for agricultural machines as they considered them an easy collar. Whether that is accurate or truth I do not know but I do know that there are a number of people in probably any community who seem to have a vast capacity for vindictiveness.

Keep a print out of Excise Notice 75 and the MoA in the cab.

Educate occiffer when he pulls you up...

 

[Simon Chiles]

A lot of manufacturers only put white in the tank for testing at production as red is illegal in a number of countries in the EU in a tractor so the don't want to leave any red in there and have customers in these countries getting a fine

True. It’s also important to note that technically a dealer delivering or letting you have a machine on demo should be on white. HMRC’s argument was that the point of the exercise was to sell a machine and therefore not an agricultural operation regardless of the use you put the machine too.

 

[Goweresque]

What about shifting your own machinery around? Lets say you have Farm A and Farm B, you do some baling at farm A, leave the baler there to go and get a trailer to load bales on, haul bales back to Farm B. Then at some later point go back to A to fetch your baler. Under the letter of the law, thats not agricultural, as you're not travelling on the road to do an agricultural operation?

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

What about shifting your own machinery around? Lets say you have Farm A and Farm B, you do some baling at farm A, leave the baler there to go and get a trailer to load bales on, haul bales back to Farm B. Then at some later point go back to A to fetch your baler. Under the letter of the law, thats not agricultural, as you're not travelling on the road to do an agricultural operation?

All of that is above board according to the MoA...

"Subject to restrictions in the definition of the particular type of vehicle, agricultural vehicles may use red diesel on public roads and will maintain exemption from vehicle Excise duty in the following circumstances.

Movement of machinery

• travel to and from a place where the vehicle is to be used or has been used solely for agricultural, horticultural or forestry purposes
• transport of trailed or mounted agricultural, horticultural and forestry implements, and of equipment or inputs required for the operation of such an implement, as part of an agricultural, horticultural or forestry operation. This does not include the towing of personal accommodation
• transport of agricultural, horticultural or forestry machinery, and equipment or inputs required for the operation of such machinery, as part of an agricultural, horticultural and forestry operation. This does not include the transportation of vehicles for personal transport in an agricultural trailer
• taking agricultural vehicles and trailed or mounted implements to be serviced or repaired
• delivery or collection of an agricultural vehicle used solely for agricultural, horticultural, or forestry purposes that has been bought, sold or hired

Movement of machinery by dealers and others not engaged in agriculture, horticulture or forestry is not covered by this agreement."

 

[joe soapy]

Even a diesel motor boat that is for pleasure only is technically meant to run on white too. It's rebated fuel for a reason.

Yes, but you can claim back a proportion of the fuel tax to allow for whats used for heating, many boats would use a big proportion for heat,
Works for petrol engined boats too, and i think when outside the 12 mile limit at sea, also if used as a safety boat. The claim form is well laid out and might also cover filling a tractor with white and claiming
back the fuel tax for the amount used for ag purposes

 

[Goweresque]

All of that is above board according to the MoA...

"Subject to restrictions in the definition of the particular type of vehicle, agricultural vehicles may use red diesel on public roads and will maintain exemption from vehicle Excise duty in the following circumstances.

Movement of machinery

• travel to and from a place where the vehicle is to be used or has been used solely for agricultural, horticultural or forestry purposes
• transport of trailed or mounted agricultural, horticultural and forestry implements, and of equipment or inputs required for the operation of such an implement, as part of an agricultural, horticultural or forestry operation. This does not include the towing of personal accommodation
• transport of agricultural, horticultural or forestry machinery, and equipment or inputs required for the operation of such machinery, as part of an agricultural, horticultural and forestry operation. This does not include the transportation of vehicles for personal transport in an agricultural trailer
• taking agricultural vehicles and trailed or mounted implements to be serviced or repaired
• delivery or collection of an agricultural vehicle used solely for agricultural, horticultural, or forestry purposes that has been bought, sold or hired

Movement of machinery by dealers and others not engaged in agriculture, horticulture or forestry is not covered by this agreement."

That still doesn't seem to cover shifting a piece of machinery from A to B if there is no agricultural operation going to be occurring at B. For example storage of machinery in winter - you finish work on Farm A, the machine sits there a while, then gets serviced and cleaned off, and shifted to Farm B (where you have more barn space). Then in the spring its shifted back again. Which of the points above covers that?

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

That still doesn't seem to cover shifting a piece of machinery from A to B if there is no agricultural operation going to be occurring at B. For example storage of machinery in winter - you finish work on Farm A, the machine sits there a while, then gets serviced and cleaned off, and shifted to Farm B (where you have more barn space). Then in the spring its shifted back again. Which of the points above covers that?

You're shifting the goal posts from what you said in your earlier post, but I would argue what you say above is still materially in the spirit and letter of the whats written in the agreement.

However as we all know, some of these scenarios bleed from the fairly obvious black and white into the grey and no one person can give you a categoric legally binding answer, unless of course the exact scenario described or envisioned has been established and proven in a court of law (as case law). That's British justice for you.

 

[Goweresque]

You're shifting the goal posts from what you said in your earlier post, but I would argue what you say above is still materially in the spirit and letter of the whats written in the agreement.

However as we all know, some of these scenarios bleed from the fairly obvious black and white into the grey and no one person can give you a categoric legally binding answer answer, unless of course the exact scenario described or envisioned has been established and proven in a court of law (as case law). That's British justice for you.

Exactly, its by far no means clear. There seems to be an assumption that the travel will take place contemporaneously with the agricultural operation, when in reality machinery will be moved from A to B in the expectation of being used for some operation, but maybe some considerable time ahead of an operation occurring, or a considerable time after an operation has occurred.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

Exactly, its by far no means clear. There seems to be an assumption that the travel will take place contemporaneously with the agricultural operation, when in reality machinery will be moved from A to B in the expectation of being used for some operation, but maybe some considerable time ahead of an operation occurring, or a considerable time after an operation has occurred.

That could be down to how you interpret it, but as far as I can see there is no written definition of timescales around an "agricultural operation" in the memorandum of agreement, that would specially limit movement of machinery or inputs etc to a certain fixed period off time....unless @Simon Chiles knows better.

Therefore (your honour / mi lord ) I would argue that that the movement of machinery in support of an agricultural operation could quite validly be hours, days, weeks, months or longer depending on various factors.

"The purpose of this Memorandum of Agreement is to provide guidance to those engaged in agriculture, horticulture and forestry, and to agencies enforcing compliance with the legislation. Where disputes arise these will continue to be considered on an individual basis with regard to the relevant legislation and any definitive interpretation of the law would remain to be given by the courts."

 

[sawdust]

cannot see what it is to do with Vosa, surely its a HMRC issue ?

Well who actually dips tanks Vosa or Taxman???

 

[Cowcalf]

Well who actually dips tanks Vosa or Taxman???

police or customs are the only ones I have seen

 

[sawdust]

police or customs are the only ones I have seen

Well it wasnae the police so it must've been ^^^^

 

[Simon Chiles]

What about shifting your own machinery around? Lets say you have Farm A and Farm B, you do some baling at farm A, leave the baler there to go and get a trailer to load bales on, haul bales back to Farm B. Then at some later point go back to A to fetch your baler. Under the letter of the law, thats not agricultural, as you're not travelling on the road to do an agricultural operation?

The rules say nothing about time, the important bit is what you are using the baler for. In your case the baler is part of your agricultural operation, you need it to make hay therefore it’s being used for agricultural purposes. Transporting it on the road is incidental ( key word ) to its use. You’d also score double points because you’re moving it between two parcels of land occupied by the same person ( you). Moving it from one farm to another would be acceptable, it might be different if you paid some bloke with a tractor who you’d never seen before to move it, then his role would be purely haulage for which he was being paid.
Even if the worst came to the worst and you were stopped by some over zealous official who saw things differently you still have to be found guilty by a judge and jury of tax evasion ( because that’s what we’re talking about) which is hardly likely to happen. If you do go to court for moving your baler between your own sheds I’ll come along and present your case provided it’s raining at the time.

 

[Goweresque]

The rules say nothing about time, the important bit is what you are using the baler for. In your case the baler is part of your agricultural operation, you need it to make hay therefore it’s being used for agricultural purposes. Transporting it on the road is incidental ( key word ) to its use. You’d also score double points because you’re moving it between two parcels of land occupied by the same person ( you). Moving it from one farm to another would be acceptable, it might be different if you paid some bloke with a tractor who you’d never seen before to move it, then his role would be purely haulage for which he was being paid.
Even if the worst came to the worst and you were stopped by some over zealous official who saw things differently you still have to be found guilty by a judge and jury of tax evasion ( because that’s what we’re talking about) which is hardly likely to happen. If you do go to court for moving your baler between your own sheds I’ll come along and present your case provided it’s raining at the time.