What is it with Africa ?

[Clever Dic]

Why do they seem incapable of having a government based on proper democracy and genuinely free elections and without multi layered corruption.I know it does affect other nations like Venezuela ,N Korea or one can point to Russia but here we are talking of a continent.
The easy answer is to blame colonialism but Australia,New Zealand ,Canada and even the US were former colonies.
India is listed as a free democracy and the words largest .
So my question is what is it with Africa ?

 

[Pond digger]

Why do they seem incapable of having a government based on proper democracy and genuinely free elections and without multi layered corruption.I know it does affect other nations like Venezuela ,N Korea or one can point to Russia but here we are talking of a continent.
The easy answer is to blame colonialism but Australia,New Zealand ,Canada and even the US were former colonies.
India is listed as a free democracy and the words largest .
So my question is what is it with Africa ?

Evolutionary retarded, but with automatic weapons.

 

[Tigger]

An interesting article of a few years ago written by an Eritrean with his take on the reasons for failure of Western-style democracy in Africa, and I quote some of it below:

"If you ask almost all Africans what they want most from their leaders they will tell you;

1) Enough food to eat.

2) Clean water to drink

3) A roof over their heads

4) Accessible and affordable medical care

5) Education for their children

Elections are way down on the list of grassroots African priorities.

Food, water, shelter and medical care, if a countries leadership is getting these priorities taken care of then they are actually practicing democracy and if they don’t provide these services to their people they are not democratic, no matter the praised heaped on them by their neo-colonial masters in the west.

All of the nations of Africa except one are caught in the western elections trap. And all of Africa except one is bleeding, and in more than one way.

Many if not most African countries pay more in interest on their debts to western banks than the combined total of all expenditures on medical care and education.

Many if not most African countries suffer from food dependency, they do not grow enough food to feed their people.

Many if not most African countries are economic basket cases, even Nigeria with its oil, staggering from one western bankster emergency bailout to another.

Everywhere you look in Africa it seems you see conflict and war and everywhere you look you see western style “democracy”, elections.

It is so bad then when an election is held without a major outbreak of violence it is considered a “victory for African democracy” even if the serving president is the only one on the ballot (see “Liberia; Plenty ‘democracy’, No electricity”).

After WWII, the western colonialists found out the hard way that they couldn’t continue to militarily occupy their “possessions”, so they created neocolonialism to control Africa and used western style “democracy” to run it.

Traditionally, Africans practiced their own forms of “democracy”, most often via a council of elders persuading all parties to arrive at a consensus where everyone got something.

It wasn’t a win or lose situation like takes place in a western style election.

Being that all parties agreed to the final decision, all parties were duty bound to respect and enforce what they had agreed to, and thus the peace was kept and folks got along with each other.

As for national decisions, there were kings or high chiefs who almost always consulted a council of tribal or clan elders. In many societies, and this was a society of villages, there were oftentimes chiefs, but still the most often used dispute resolution was consensus, a mediation by elders. Peace was maintained and societal unity preserved.

Western “democracy” in Africa creates just the opposite. In Kenya, the Kikuyu, an ethnic minority installed in power by the departing British empire has to win the election or risk losing everything to their larger tribal rivals, the Luo. The result? Elections and thousands dead and hundreds of thousands displaced. This upcoming election may see even worse.

The Congo? Ethiopia? Even that supposed success story for African Democracy, Senegal, saw blood in the streets.

Yet there is one island of peace and stability in the midst of all this chaos and crisis. One place where the people of the country, especially the people of the villages, still some 70%, will tell you that the government has kept its promises, and the proof is there for all to see. The solar powered wells, the micro dams for irrigation, the medical clinics and schools, all are spreading to even the most remote villages.

HIV/AIDS down by 40%, the best in Africa by a mile, malaria mortality down 80%, the biggest breakthrough in malaria history. Maternal and infant mortality seeing “remarkable improvement” (from the World Bank, no less) and the Millennium Development goals all on track for achieving. And on top of this, the fastest growing economy in Africa.

The one real success story in Africa and the only country NOT to have elections.

Maybe, just maybe, not allowing western “democracy” is what it takes for Africa to succeed.

Eritrea and Eritreans want nothing to do with neocolonialism and “democracy” western style. No thanks, we have our own version of democracy, real democracy, and our people are seeing the benefits.

Paradise? No, life is still hard for most, but the very poorest are the priority and their lives have changed, dramatically.

In Africa the poor are most of the people and if you are not taking care of them first and foremost, you are NOT democratic.

If elections mean democracy, and sick and hungry children in their millions is business as usual than Eritreans will tell you to keep your “democracy”. This is about Africa’s one “undemocratic” country, where peace reigns and our lives are getting better, especially for those most in need.

Don’t shoot me, I am just the messenger, though a real believer in the message. I have lived here in Eritrea since 2006 and am telling you what I have witnessed and come to believe in."

EDIT: Oops, forgot to give the source

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/05/01/destroying-africa-with-western-democracy/

 

[Clever Dic]

An interesting article of a few years ago written by an Eritrean with his take on the reasons for failure of Western-style democracy in Africa, and I quote some of it below:

"If you ask almost all Africans what they want most from their leaders they will tell you;

1) Enough food to eat.

2) Clean water to drink

3) A roof over their heads

4) Accessible and affordable medical care

5) Education for their children

Elections are way down on the list of grassroots African priorities.

Food, water, shelter and medical care, if a countries leadership is getting these priorities taken care of then they are actually practicing democracy and if they don’t provide these services to their people they are not democratic, no matter the praised heaped on them by their neo-colonial masters in the west.

All of the nations of Africa except one are caught in the western elections trap. And all of Africa except one is bleeding, and in more than one way.

Many if not most African countries pay more in interest on their debts to western banks than the combined total of all expenditures on medical care and education.

Many if not most African countries suffer from food dependency, they do not grow enough food to feed their people.

Many if not most African countries are economic basket cases, even Nigeria with its oil, staggering from one western bankster emergency bailout to another.

Everywhere you look in Africa it seems you see conflict and war and everywhere you look you see western style “democracy”, elections.

It is so bad then when an election is held without a major outbreak of violence it is considered a “victory for African democracy” even if the serving president is the only one on the ballot (see “Liberia; Plenty ‘democracy’, No electricity”).

After WWII, the western colonialists found out the hard way that they couldn’t continue to militarily occupy their “possessions”, so they created neocolonialism to control Africa and used western style “democracy” to run it.

Traditionally, Africans practiced their own forms of “democracy”, most often via a council of elders persuading all parties to arrive at a consensus where everyone got something.

It wasn’t a win or lose situation like takes place in a western style election.

Being that all parties agreed to the final decision, all parties were duty bound to respect and enforce what they had agreed to, and thus the peace was kept and folks got along with each other.

As for national decisions, there were kings or high chiefs who almost always consulted a council of tribal or clan elders. In many societies, and this was a society of villages, there were oftentimes chiefs, but still the most often used dispute resolution was consensus, a mediation by elders. Peace was maintained and societal unity preserved.

Western “democracy” in Africa creates just the opposite. In Kenya, the Kikuyu, an ethnic minority installed in power by the departing British empire has to win the election or risk losing everything to their larger tribal rivals, the Luo. The result? Elections and thousands dead and hundreds of thousands displaced. This upcoming election may see even worse.

The Congo? Ethiopia? Even that supposed success story for African Democracy, Senegal, saw blood in the streets.

Yet there is one island of peace and stability in the midst of all this chaos and crisis. One place where the people of the country, especially the people of the villages, still some 70%, will tell you that the government has kept its promises, and the proof is there for all to see. The solar powered wells, the micro dams for irrigation, the medical clinics and schools, all are spreading to even the most remote villages.

HIV/AIDS down by 40%, the best in Africa by a mile, malaria mortality down 80%, the biggest breakthrough in malaria history. Maternal and infant mortality seeing “remarkable improvement” (from the World Bank, no less) and the Millennium Development goals all on track for achieving. And on top of this, the fastest growing economy in Africa.

The one real success story in Africa and the only country NOT to have elections.

Maybe, just maybe, not allowing western “democracy” is what it takes for Africa to succeed.

Eritrea and Eritreans want nothing to do with neocolonialism and “democracy” western style. No thanks, we have our own version of democracy, real democracy, and our people are seeing the benefits.

Paradise? No, life is still hard for most, but the very poorest are the priority and their lives have changed, dramatically.

In Africa the poor are most of the people and if you are not taking care of them first and foremost, you are NOT democratic.

If elections mean democracy, and sick and hungry children in their millions is business as usual than Eritreans will tell you to keep your “democracy”. This is about Africa’s one “undemocratic” country, where peace reigns and our lives are getting better, especially for those most in need.

Don’t shoot me, I am just the messenger, though a real believer in the message. I have lived here in Eritrea since 2006 and am telling you what I have witnessed and come to believe in."

EDIT: Oops, forgot to give the source

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/05/01/destroying-africa-with-western-democracy/

Really interesting reply regarding part of my question but it answers only part of the problem .
Corruption on a mass scale and it is this aceptance of corruption that hinders real investment as does an independent judiciary. If you cant rely on the law to be independent of corruption no one saves and no one invests. So if democracy is not the answer than an enlightened dictator would do but this also seems impossible in Africa where the constant news is of these rulers lining their pockets to a massive degree (Zuma in the supposed light of S Africa.)

 

[wanton dwarf]

Really interesting reply regarding part of my question but it answers only part of the problem .
Corruption on a mass scale and it is this aceptance of corruption that hinders real investment as does an independent judiciary. If you cant rely on the law to be independent of corruption no one saves and no one invests. So if democracy is not the answer than an enlightened dictator would do but this also seems impossible in Africa where the constant news is of these rulers lining their pockets to a massive degree (Zuma in the supposed light of S Africa.)

If people are all the same and we have millions of immigrants from all over the world. Why don't some of those who've come to the West go back and change their countries for the "better" ?

I don't understand why most people expect other races & cultures to act like them .. why do you even think Africans WANT Western life style ? Haven't you noticed the fact that many of those who've come to the West don't want to live a Western way of life.

Don't you understand that if the UK was made up of majority Russians then the UK would become communist for example. If the majority were to become African then it would turn tribal. If the majority became Muslim then Sharia law would prevail. If the majority were to become Indian then we'd have a caste system.

I just don't get why you think Western Modernity is the only path available .. most of the world doesn't operate that way and most of the world hates the West. For example arranged marriage is the norm in many cultures .. if you were to suggest the opposite you'd be looked on as abnormal and possibly face consequences.

 

[Tigger]

Acceptance of corruption I would imagine is at least partly born from being in circumstances where you have to fight just for survival, very little time or inclination there to be walking around waving banners, lighting candles and #standingtogether when bad things happen. Certainly when African people migrate to other countries where survival is easier, they become more than capable of forming protest and making their feelings known, BLM being one example.

We too of course have corruption, in fact our elections are something of a joke, when students can vote twice as they register at their University address as well as at home with parents. And no ID required to be shown. Luckily the effects are less dramatic here.

 

[Clever Dic]

If people are all the same and we have millions of immigrants from all over the world. Why don't some of those who've come to the West go back and change their countries for the "better" ?

I don't understand why most people expect other races & cultures to act like them .. why do you even think Africans WANT Western life style ? Haven't you noticed the fact that many of those who've come to the West don't want to live a Western way of life.

Don't you understand that if the UK was made up of majority Russians then the UK would become communist for example. If the majority were to become African then it would turn tribal. If the majority became Muslim then Sharia law would prevail. If the majority were to become Indian then we'd have a caste system.

I just don't get why you think Western Modernity is the only path available .. most of the world doesn't operate that way and most of the world hates the West. For example arranged marriage is the norm in many cultures .. if you were to suggest the opposite you'd be looked on as abnormal and possibly face consequences.

Surely you have partly answered your own question. You say the west is hated by most of the world and most do not want a western lifestyle and yet you say we have millions of immigrants from these countries and millions more trying to get in.
So one has to ask if they hate us so much and hate our lifestyle and culture why the f.. do they not want to stay in their own country with their own ways and culture.
There are not millions of europeans and americans crossing on boats to get to Africa so one has to assume we must have something they want that their country is failing to provide.

 

[wanton dwarf]

Surely you have partly answered your own question. You say the west is hated by most of the world and most do not want a western lifestyle and yet you say we have millions of immigrants from these countries and millions more trying to get in.
So one has to ask if they hate us so much and hate our lifestyle and culture why the f.. do they not want to stay in their own country with their own ways and culture.
There are not millions of europeans and americans crossing on boats to get to Africa so one has to assume we must have something they want that their country is failing to provide.

Yes I have answered my own question .. mainly because I wanted to put my point of view across as well. When I travelled I made it a point of not judging other cultures by my own and was interested in the differences of how people's minds thought. Mind you I didn't go to Africa .. but I still don't see why people assume Western culture and democracy is best.

I would have thought that was obvious .. they want the resources given away freely.

They aren't coming to the West to vote.

 

[Danllan]

Africa, meaning black Africa, is simply less advanced societally than most of the rest of the world. There are, of course, many different societies and cultures there, some more or less able than others; however, the colonial argument just doesn't wash after 50+ years of independence for most, certainly not as an 'explain all'. An honest examination would point out the following (not ordered by precedence):

They have been given 20th / 21st Century weapons and medicines that were developed - i.e. anthropologically 'evolved' - by others; consequently their cultures have not had time to catch up and develop the necessary attitudes and responsibility to cope with them. Give these things to people who are, at most, three generations away from the stone age and what would you expect? Result = barbarism and soaring populations.

Most of the place is still highly tribal, respect is demanded and given to the 'big man', be he Chief or 'President' (for life...). This also means that their is not really such a thing as 'Patriotism' with a capital 'P', the countries are almost all undesired amalgamations; they could have split peaceably, but then there wouldn't have been as big a pie for the 'big man' at the top.

The corruption issue is exacerbated by outsiders taking advantage of 'leaders' who are out for their own gain. But there wouldn't and couldn't be outsiders taking advantage if the corruption wasn't endemic to start with.

We often hear of the 'close family values' of Africans, yeah, right. These are the same people who still leave granny out for the hyenas and commit incestuous rape at a rate staggering to outsiders - check out the degree of albinism and other degenerate diseases prevalent in black Africa that are relatively low elsewhere. There is relatively little altruism in black Africa.

Many urban / politicised Africans have a deep seated inferiority complex and a truculence to and resentment of those from elsewhere who they themselves regard as in better situations. Very often the success they see is attributed to luck, rather than genius and hard work. I am unaware of any black Nobel laureates in the sciences or of any major engineering, scientific or medical advance made by a black African. It is a statement of recorded scientific fact that black Africans have, on average, lower IQs than other races, but the difference between the races is of no relevance when compared to that between individuals within a given race and in the greater population, so that doesn't help explain anything. There are many, many highly intelligent black Africans and presumably there always have been, so why no great innovations?*

Having lived in a couple of black countries - and having once been asked, while living in Tanzania, if I left Zim because I didn't want to live under a black government... - my own conclusion is that black Africa is stuck in a rut because of one, insurmountable problem, and it is that they do not have to 'develop' while the rest of the world sorts out their problems for them.

Take away the safety-net of 'aid' and, very soon, the amount the bigwigs cream off would be painfully apparent. Revolution would follow. This may be repeated several times but, eventually, a leader with the nous to do what is best for most as a means of being re-chosen will turn up and, with luck, stand down gracefully too for a respected retirement. Democracy is catching, given a chance it could even spread in Africa, but before it does there will have to be local responsibility for local problems.


*Anyone thinking about 2001 and stones and sticks is barking up the wrong tree, chimp's have those...

 

[wanton dwarf]

Democracy is catching

Isn't the opposite true ?

Lebannon, Ghaza and most of the Middle East has degenerated into religious enclaves which has also spread to Africa. In fact it would be true to point out that Saudi Arabia has begun the colonisation of the West ?

 

[Danllan]

Isn't the opposite true ?

Lebannon, Ghaza and most of the Middle East has degenerated into religious enclaves which has also spread to Africa. In fact it would be true to point out that Saudi Arabia has begun the colonisation of the West ?

No.

 

[wanton dwarf]

No.

The Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt .. all of which used to have Westernised dress codes.

 

[Danllan]

The Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt .. all of which used to have Westernised dress codes.

Clothes have little to do with democracy.

Returning to the subject of black Africa, it is depressing to see that the South Africans have just decided to constitutionally guarantee land expropriation. Why not? It worked so well in Zimbabwe...

President Ramaphosa has said that this is '... of critical importance to the economy...' so he, at least, is aware of the success North of the border. It beggars belief and it will beggar South Africa.

 

[wanton dwarf]

Clothes have little to do with democracy.

Trying to make the point that those countries have regressed into hardline Sharia Islamic law .. which isn't democracy. In fact if you trace what's happened to Christians in the Middle East it mirror images the regression of Middle Eastern countries.

Given the way Christianity has been suppressed and the people slaughtered .. I'm getting concerned about how Christianity has been persecuted in the West. I'm not a Christian BTW.

Anyway I won't bother

 

[ollie989898]

It's the same in many parts of the Middle east.

One's loyalty is to their family or clan or whatever social grouping you can define. This loyalty is greater than to the state or government, be that national, regional or local in form. An election is basically a non-event; since an individual has no real patriotism and cannot distinguish their role in anything greater than their family circle, they do not see any reason or merit in voting. Whilst they might make very altruistic overtures due to Islamic beliefs in some areas, do not count on it from everyone. Trust is difficult to engage unless you are related. If you look at Saudi Arabia, the entire government is made up from people in offices who are basically extended family members, and the same will be true of local police chiefs and the like- he is related to 'the family' therefore he can be trusted with this responsibility.

With the above societal structure, you can understand where lawlessness and corruption might take root and become endemic.

Interestingly, even Islamic countries have different interpretations of Sharia law, it can be fairly practical in nature. And for all the hard-liner stuff you read in the press some countries have Christians and Jews living there. Iran, for example, has Jewish cabinet ministers.

Don't get me started on aid money. I'm all for making the world's poorest richer but not by giving them funny money.

 

[ollie989898]

Africa, meaning black Africa, is simply less advanced societally than most of the rest of the world. There are, of course, many different societies and cultures there, some more or less able than others; however, the colonial argument just doesn't wash after 50+ years of independence for most, certainly not as an 'explain all'. An honest examination would point out the following (not ordered by precedence):

They have been given 20th / 21st Century weapons and medicines that were developed - i.e. anthropologically 'evolved' - by others; consequently their cultures have not had time to catch up and develop the necessary attitudes and responsibility to cope with them. Give these things to people who are, at most, three generations away from the stone age and what would you expect? Result = barbarism and soaring populations.

Most of the place is still highly tribal, respect is demanded and given to the 'big man', be he Chief or 'President' (for life...). This also means that their is not really such a thing as 'Patriotism' with a capital 'P', the countries are almost all undesired amalgamations; they could have split peaceably, but then there wouldn't have been as big a pie for the 'big man' at the top.

The corruption issue is exacerbated by outsiders taking advantage of 'leaders' who are out for their own gain. But there wouldn't and couldn't be outsiders taking advantage if the corruption wasn't endemic to start with.

We often hear of the 'close family values' of Africans, yeah, right. These are the same people who still leave granny out for the hyenas and commit incestuous rape at a rate staggering to outsiders - check out the degree of albinism and other degenerate diseases prevalent in black Africa that are relatively low elsewhere. There is relatively little altruism in black Africa.

Many urban / politicised Africans have a deep seated inferiority complex and a truculence to and resentment of those from elsewhere who they themselves regard as in better situations. Very often the success they see is attributed to luck, rather than genius and hard work. I am unaware of any black Nobel laureates in the sciences or of any major engineering, scientific or medical advance made by a black African. It is a statement of recorded scientific fact that black Africans have, on average, lower IQs than other races, but the difference between the races is of no relevance when compared to that between individuals within a given race and in the greater population, so that doesn't help explain anything. There are many, many highly intelligent black Africans and presumably there always have been, so why no great innovations?*

Having lived in a couple of black countries - and having once been asked, while living in Tanzania, if I left Zim because I didn't want to live under a black government... - my own conclusion is that black Africa is stuck in a rut because of one, insurmountable problem, and it is that they do not have to 'develop' while the rest of the world sorts out their problems for them.

Take away the safety-net of 'aid' and, very soon, the amount the bigwigs cream off would be painfully apparent. Revolution would follow. This may be repeated several times but, eventually, a leader with the nous to do what is best for most as a means of being re-chosen will turn up and, with luck, stand down gracefully too for a respected retirement. Democracy is catching, given a chance it could even spread in Africa, but before it does there will have to be local responsibility for local problems.


*Anyone thinking about 2001 and stones and sticks is barking up the wrong tree, chimp's have those...

Excellent post, and I agree with a lot of it, but crucially, the crux of it is, that not all countries have the developmental history of the UK, there are invariably times when the UK certainly was lawless and basically a nation of savages only we grew out of it.

 

[Danllan]

Excellent post, and I agree with a lot of it, but crucially, the crux of it is, that not all countries have the developmental history of the UK, there are invariably times when the UK certainly was lawless and basically a nation of savages only we grew out of it.

And we didn't have modern weapons and medicines while we were doing so.

@wanton dwarf Sharia, in anything approaching a literal interpretation, and democracy are mutually exclusive. But the same can be written of any religious fundamentalism, simply because 'God' always knows best and has already had the last word.

The countries you refer to have never been true democracies, although Lebanon came close. Turkey is a different matter altogether... point is, these countries peripheral to Israel are the exceptions; everywhere else we have seen a proper functioning democracy established, the neighbours see it, like it and want it.

 

[nivilla1982]

Zanu-PF seem to have won the parliamentary election in Zimbabwe.
Clashes on the street.

 

[caveman]

Zanu-PF seem to have won the parliamentary election in Zimbabwe.
Clashes on the street.

No doubt the ruskies interfered.

 

[Ashtree]

No doubt the ruskies interfered.

Possibly. But, having shaken off the Brits, devoured itself under Mugabe, guess who’s now in control ......

https://capx.co/china-buys-its-first-african-colony-for-a-meagre-40million/