What is the biggest consideration in choosing a suckler herd sire?

[Walterp]

Not fully in agreement there WP, They're good cattle on paper, We have tried them and cannot handle them. We only have cattle housed for a short while at calving and maybe gathered 2 or 3 times during the year and the lims in this situation were mental, a one man beast. If I took a second person with me ever they would show me up completely. Kgs at weaning weren't as good as they could have been.
We have been Sim for the last 10 years and have introduced some SH in the last few and the cattle could not be quieter and live out easily with good tough thick skins. Both traits have improved more and more the further away from Lim we have become, along with Kgs.

Yep, different cattle for different systems.

We've accepted that Limousins tend to be (despite the efforts of breeders) smaller, livelier and harder to handle. Despite these drawbacks, they still have a lot to offer, though: they are survivors, they can last a long time with a good cull value into their teens, and can often finish off grass alone. Their fairly uniform carcase is c. 325 kg R4L d/w @ >55% KOP, which is, perhaps, the way the trade wants to go - despite farmers wanting, quite naturally, to go the other way.

They also require a lot less labour and intervention at calving time, which is just as well....

 

[M-J-G]

Whatever way you look at it you are more likely to get what is required by using two bulls.

We sold 97 calves per 100 cows put to the bull last year, mix of mostly sim and some simXSh bullocks average gain was 1.4 form birth to sale, which was 1 month after weaning. Without creep! The cow did all the rearing not the meal man. That's with sires all selected on maternal traits for 10 years.The finisher tells me that they nearly all make U's at slaughter. No need for two types of bulls for me.

 

[Walterp]

We sold 97 calves per 100 cows put to the bull last year, mix of mostly sim and some simXSh bullocks average gain was 1.4 form birth to sale, which was 1 month after weaning. Without creep! The cow did all the rearing not the meal man. That's with sires all selected on maternal traits for 10 years.The finisher tells me that they nearly all make U's at slaughter. No need for two types of bulls for me.

These cattle went into a finishing system straightaway?

 

[M-J-G]

These cattle went into a finishing system straightaway?

Not too sure of what he does for the first while, The strongest of them Jan Feb born won't go out in spring. Finish about June at 16/17 months or so, younger march calves finish by autumn. The guy wants real growth for a quick finish so he's has most sold by the time he buys again.

 

[Baling Hay]

Not too sure of what he does for the first while, The strongest of them Jan Feb born won't go out in spring. Finish about June at 16/17 months or so, younger march calves finish by autumn. The guy wants real growth for a quick finish so he's has most sold by the time he buys again.

What way do you outwinter your cows then?

 

[GenuineRisk]

Weight is still hugely important, but I think we'd all agree that its not all about having the heaviest calves in the mart, its kilos sold per cows put to the bull that counts.
Nothing wrong with having big cows and big calves, provided you can get the cows in calf and get the calves back out easily.
But calves with 90kg birth weights? The only people who make a profit from them are the Vet and the Knacker man!

Would agree with that. 45kg calves are big enough - you want small calves that grow like maggots and give a good dead weight price at the end. When it comes down to it, colour is immaterial - they're all red when they're dead. Muscle will give but bone won't, so the heavily boned and muscled bull isn't desirable. But ultimately, you have to be able to handle both your cows and your bulls with a reasonable degree of safety. No point in allegedly having the most efficient herd on the block if you're six feet under because they're nutters.

 

[M-J-G]

What way do you outwinter your cows then?

I mean the Jan/Feb born yearlings won't go out in spring. They stay in for finishing.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Would agree with that. 45kg calves are big enough - you want small calves that grow like maggots and give a good dead weight price at the end. When it comes down to it, colour is immaterial - they're all red when they're dead. Muscle will give but bone won't, so the heavily boned and muscled bull isn't desirable. But ultimately, you have to be able to handle both your cows and your bulls with a reasonable degree of safety. No point in allegedly having the most efficient herd on the block if you're six feet under because they're nutters.

Milked a jug full of colostrum for lambs from a fresh calved heifer this pm while she had her head in a bucket of cake - no yoke. Don't suppose Walter could do that with one of his lims - still able to unreservedly agree Walt?

 

[Baling Hay]

I mean the Jan/Feb born yearlings won't go out in spring. They stay in for finishing.

You said you only have cattle housed for a short while at calving, what do they do the rest of the winter?

 

[M-J-G]

You said you only have cattle housed for a short while at calving, what do they do the rest of the winter?

The farm is Dry at one end. Cows live out on a sandy field getting hay and straw. Heifers are in a separate group. They calve mid Jan-mid Mar, they are drawn every week or so at calving time and come into corrals to keep an eye on them. Into a shed at point of calving where they can be watched with cameras. Post calving they get penned for a day, tagged and what needs it gets de-horned. Then into groups of 10-15 for a week or two depending on weather, then out onto a few choice drier fields where the cows get silage until the grass grows????? Still waiting!!!!!!!!

2yo calved heifers stay in a group of their own to get some concentrates.

 

[Walterp]

Milked a jug full of colostrum for lambs from a fresh calved heifer this pm while she had her head in a bucket of cake - no yoke. Don't suppose Walter could do that with one of his lims - still able to unreservedly agree Walt?

Cattle temperament isn't something to generalise about easily: Julie has dairy cross Simmentals and Friesians, pedigree Herefords, pedigree Angus, her All Black Baldies, as well as the commercial Limousins. I don't think that you can approach them on a breed basis; for example, some of the cross Simmentals are unpredictable and prone to kick out fiercely, the Herefords can be protective at calving and some Angus's can be nastier than some Limousins. Some of the Lims are lovely by comparison, some are not.

I'd suggest that the best way to approach the matter is by having a safe handling system and never trusting an animal. Why? Because it's an animal, of course.

If you want colostrum, get it from your dairying neighbour or use the crush - because isn't that what's it's for?

 

[M-J-G]

Cattle temperament isn't something to generalise about easily: Julie has dairy cross Simmentals and Friesians, pedigree Herefords, pedigree Angus, her All Black Baldies, as well as the commercial Limousins. I don't think that you can approach them on a breed basis; for example, some of the cross Simmentals are unpredictable and prone to kick out fiercely, the Herefords can be protective at calving and some Angus's can be nastier than some Limousins. Some of the Lims are lovely by comparison, some are not.

I'd suggest that the best way to approach the matter is by having a safe handling system and never trusting an animal. Why? Because it's an animal, of course.

If you want colostrum, get it from your dairying neighbour or use the crush - because isn't that what's it's for?

Average Lims are wilder than the average of most other breeds, not many people will dispute that.

Nothing wrong with milking a beast or suckling a calf I the middle of a pen. Don't go to a neighbour for colostrum unless you know his disease status and if he vaccinates for the same diseases you do!

 

[J-ham]

Cattle temperament isn't something to generalise about easily

I will concede that lims generally have a flighty nature but I wouldn't say they were more aggressive than any other breed. Put it this way, I'd rather have a cow running away from me than towards me! There's good and bad in all breeds surely?

 

[M-J-G]

I will concede that lims generally have a flighty nature but I wouldn't say they were more aggressive than any other breed. Put it this way, I'd rather have a cow running away from me than towards me! There's good and bad in all breeds surely?

You are correct, a wild one no matter what breed it is, could be done without.

 

[Flyer]

Strong sex drive

 

[Baling Hay]

The farm is Dry at one end. Cows live out on a sandy field getting hay and straw. Heifers are in a separate group. They calve mid Jan-mid Mar, they are drawn every week or so at calving time and come into corrals to keep an eye on them. Into a shed at point of calving where they can be watched with cameras. Post calving they get penned for a day, tagged and what needs it gets de-horned. Then into groups of 10-15 for a week or two depending on weather, then out onto a few choice drier fields where the cows get silage until the grass grows????? Still waiting!!!!!!!!

2yo calved heifers stay in a group of their own to get some concentrates.

You must have some amazing dry land! You would be washed away in Ayrshire if we tried to do that!

 

[spanners]

Money

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Cattle temperament isn't something to generalise about easily: Julie has dairy cross Simmentals and Friesians, pedigree Herefords, pedigree Angus, her All Black Baldies, as well as the commercial Limousins. I don't think that you can approach them on a breed basis; for example, some of the cross Simmentals are unpredictable and prone to kick out fiercely, the Herefords can be protective at calving and some Angus's can be nastier than some Limousins. Some of the Lims are lovely by comparison, some are not.

I'd suggest that the best way to approach the matter is by having a safe handling system and never trusting an animal. Why? Because it's an animal, of course.

If you want colostrum, get it from your dairying neighbour or use the crush - because isn't that what's it's for?

I'd say I would be far more likely to be kicked in the crush than the way I did it. If she kicks out in the crush, she may catch my arm against the metalwork and break it. In the pen with my arm up against her she'll just push me away if she kicks - and upset the jug!
I've yet to meet a nasty blue - stubborn, yes, nasty, no. No doubt I will 1 day as there's always an exception, and yes I intend to be ready for her, and intend to cull her too.

 

[Walterp]

I'd say I would be far more likely to be kicked in the crush than the way I did it. If she kicks out in the crush, she may catch my arm against the metalwork and break it. In the pen with my arm up against her she'll just push me away if she kicks - and upset the jug!
I've yet to meet a nasty blue - stubborn, yes, nasty, no. No doubt I will 1 day as there's always an exception, and yes I intend to be ready for her, and intend to cull her too.

I suspect that we may have different ideas about what, exactly, a 'kick' entails.

My idea of a kick is when our vet was cutting a steer and it kicked: that meant both feet flew back, at the same time, to connect in the face of the vet, who was a six footer (and a US Navy veteran, as it happened, but that's another story...) and both hooves took him between the forehead and the nose.

I think you may be thinking of something else.

 

[NZDan]

Is quiet temperament always a good thing?
I read at article recently by Kitt Pharo, he scores his bulls on temperament with 5 stars being the best score, basically a five star bull allows you to place a hand on him in the yard as a yearling, his first 5 star bull was a bull he called Pledge.(I think)
Many of his bull buyers don't want 5 star bulls, they want 1 and 2 star bulls, Why? Because 5 star sired cows are to hard to shift, you have to get to close to them to move the, 1 and 2 star sired cows move sooner and are much easier to shift.
But back to Pledge, as a 5 star bull he was very quite and could you could walk right up to him, a nice quiet bull, or was he, Pledge is also the only bull that has put Kitt over a fence, why because as a quiet bull he has no fear or respect, he is too quiet.
Personally I'd want a bull that kept his distance, same with my cows, my quietest cow was also my most dangerous at calving time.