Dismiss Notice
Pincer® - 400 g/ltr flufenacet and 100 g/ltr diflufenican - 5 ltr on Farm Marketplace for £244.60

click here to buy...

What will the no tillers do ?

Discussion in 'Direct Drilling Crops & Agronomy' started by warksfarmer, Sep 10, 2017.

  1. rob1

    rob1 Member

    Location:
    wiltshire
    It can only get into water by applying it to a hard surface which then takes rain and washes into drains, anything that goes onto land will be absorbed by any clay particals and the soil bugs deal with it, sorry but applying it pre harvest is how it gets into food,
     
    Will Blackburn likes this.
  2. Tractor Boy

    Tractor Boy Member

    Location:
    Suffolk
    Even where people have black grass, no one is using 4/5 doses of 4L/ha per year. It's usually a couple of low doses. I'm afraid it is definitely pre harvest use that is causing the problem.
     
  3. York

    York Member

    Location:
    D-Berlin
    as I said it numerous times this isn't going to be the end of the world....
    Maybe it's now time to give other approaches a chance? They are there & tillage isn't the solution to it. You will never be able to "outtill" BG! BG is a "indicator" plant. remove the "reason for beeing there" & it will loose it's domination.
    Wide rotation & cover crops will help, but with a "long time" & economic part involved.
    I'm pretty confident that we are able to "get the dominance" of BG down within a foreseeable future, let's say a max. of 5 years.
    So that noone can now start to "bash" on me I openly address one of the major components in "Soil fertility changes" via nutrition to change the soil chemistry.
    this has been discussed many times on old BFF & TFF. Enough has been said it's time to individually decide to give it a chance & go.
    I would say it's worth to give it a chance, or? Yes you can wait till the officials will come with a solution but how will they come when the majority of research needs to be co-fundet by industry? Does Industry have a incentive to find a "remedy" for the cause?
    York-Th.
     
  4. Tractor Boy

    Tractor Boy Member

    Location:
    Suffolk
    I hope you are right. I have only been no tilling for 2 years, I am using cover crops, I don't grow second winter cereals , I now have 60% of the farm down to spring cropping and am using an array of crops. At the minute I still have blackgrass.
     
  5. I've been no tilling for 12 years and don't have blackgrass and have grow about 50% crops. I still use roundup to help make the system work. Soil fertility is excellent but still need herbicides for meadowgrass/brome and ryegrass
     
    Tractor Boy likes this.
  6. Simon C

    Simon C Member

    Location:
    Essex Coast
    Unfortunately this isn't true. I have loads of test results of water coming out of my land drains which are under fields that have not been cultivated for 10 years, I have attached one as an example. 3800 ug/l Glyphosate and 3100 ug/l AMPA, which is the chemical that glyphosate breaks down into. This sample was collected in March after an application the previous September.

    I am sorry to say that if this much glyphosate is in the soil water, then it is also in the plants and so must also be in the food we produce.

    Now I need glyphosate as much as any no-till farmer, but these are the basic facts that we can't get away from. Consumers have every right to expect their food to be free from chemicals (The customer is always right), but the problem with glyphosate is that it is used so extensively throughout the world that it is showing up in just about any food product they choose to test.

    For my part, I have introduced a couple of perennial crops to my rotation so that I am not spraying the whole farm every year, and try to keep no more than 3 litres in any one year. If I want to destroy a cover in the winter, knowing I will have to spray again before drilling a Spring crop, I only use 1 litre, then follow up with 1.5 or 2.

    After seeing glyphosate in these water tests, this strategy is obviously not enough, so this Autumn I have had an idea to try and get it broken down much more quickly. I have been using this L-CBF BOOST (https://www.qlfagronomy.co.uk/products/l-cbf-boost/) with my liquid nitrogen for a few years now and so thought I would try it in with the glyphosate as a biological stimulant and feed. Several test strips with and without 10 lts/ha have proved that it makes no difference to the efficacy or speed of kill, so I have done all my autumn drilled land with it this year, with a few missed area for residue testing later.
     

    Attached Files:

    martian, No Worries, York and 4 others like this.
  7. I am just wondering if residual glyphosate on some of our field is the reason why we are seeing productivity falling away. I was attributing it to poor soil nutrient status after 5 years or more of intensive glyphosate usage to control BG....Just been looking at some second hand ploughs in Farmers Guide.!!
     
    York likes this.
  8. Dead Rabbits

    Dead Rabbits Member

    Location:
    'Merica
    What prompted you to test your drain water? Are you testing for anything else that isn't listed on the test results? Nitrates, phosphorus etc?
     
  9. Simon C

    Simon C Member

    Location:
    Essex Coast
    As I say, if it's in the water, it is in the plants. What we don't know is how much and what effect it is having.
     
    Jim Bullock and York like this.
  10. York

    York Member

    Location:
    D-Berlin
    Jim,

    no reason for getting a plow. you are not addressing teh source of the problem & you know this. You want to "calm" your consience. :)
    there is enough data out there what Glyphosate is affecting. also written here on TFF & lost BFF. I organised a day seminar with Huber, Roemheld (unfortunately too early dead) & Krueger (vet Prof) on the topic of chemical usage & plant and animal health.
    Also have meanwhile at least 100mb data on Glyhosate & other chemicals affecting plant, soil & animal health. When you can find in city peoples urine, which never have been on a farm, Glyphosate & its derivates, than we have to take notice of this.
    Please feel free to research the original patent claims of glyphosate, eye opening.
    Also do your own research on when the last toxicology testing on Glyphosate was done.
    effects.
    York-Th.
     
  11. York

    York Member

    Location:
    D-Berlin
    Jim,
    it is known.
    One effect is "root rot" which you can now buy a seed treatment which was introduced by whom?
    When do you have this with highest probability? in 2nd wheat, or?
    Don't let you bee fooled, the data & evidence is out there for every one who keeps his mind free & isn't following the flock!
    York-Th.
     
    Renaultman likes this.
  12. Simon C

    Simon C Member

    Location:
    Essex Coast
    Look at the file, you will see everything else that was tested for. Anglia Water were comparing my no-till filtered water to conventional.
     
  13. Steevo

    Steevo Member

    Location:
    Gloucestershire
    I assume the "less than" figures are lower than they can test for accurately. i.e. they could be zero....but because they can't say it is zero, they say it's less than they can test...which suggests that there is some chemical present, but in fact there may not be.
     
    Simon C likes this.
  14. Simon C

    Simon C Member

    Location:
    Essex Coast
    Yes that's right
     
  15. No fear York I have no plans to get the plough out at present... It's that I have got time on my hands as I am in bed with pneumonia and I have been looking for things to read up on...
     
    Louis Mc likes this.
  16. Dead Rabbits

    Dead Rabbits Member

    Location:
    'Merica
    Yes I looked at the file, just wondering if you had tested nutrient leaching as well. So was there a difference between no-till and conventional?
     
  17. Richard III

    Richard III Member

    Location:
    CW5 Cheshire
    Taken from http://www.glyphosate.eu/ground-water-quality-and-glyphosate :-

    With its combination of degradability and strong binding to most soils typically used in agriculture, glyphosate has low potential to move through the soil profile and has rarely been detected in groundwater 1. The leaching of glyphosate and AMPA has been largely studied through lab experiments 6, lysimeters 5, 7, 14 field leaching 13 and modeling studies 4, 12. The results from these studies confirm that both compounds are unlikely to move to groundwater.

    With the improvement of analytical detection methods, glyphosate and AMPA have been occasionally reported in groundwater, but rarely above the 0.1 µg/L threshold. Detections of these substances seem to occur only in shallow groundwater or wells with direct surface water influence, sometimes associated with contamination incidents and linked with unsuitable sampling sites and inadequate analytical techniques.

    To date, there is no evidence of any persistent and confirmed groundwater contamination with glyphosate or AMPA according to ground water monitoring data available for 14 European countries 8.


    That appears to be one hell of a lot of glyphosate coming out of your soil Simon, I'm confused.

    When was glyphosate last applied to this field prior to the test? Maybe the direct pathways created by No Till to the drains have allowed this to happen?
     
  18. Simon C

    Simon C Member

    Location:
    Essex Coast
    Richard, Anglia Water weren't at all surprised by these results, they said they are quite normal and because glyphosate is so easy to clean out of water, they don't worry about it, unlike things like metaldehyde and propyzamide which they can't.

    Glyphosate was applied 5 months before collecting the water. I have just looked up my rainfall for that period, 341mm spread evenly through the winter, which would be quite normal for here. So it is not as if it had been very dry and then all washed out at once.

    The above quote is obviously a pack of lies
     
    Richard III likes this.
  19. Simon C

    Simon C Member

    Location:
    Essex Coast
    Neighbours ditch- AMPA 2700ug/l, glyphosate 850 ug/l, cloopyriad shows up pyriad 0.12ug/l, prpyzamide 1.1ug/l, ethofumesate 0.25ug/l

    Clopyriad shows up on several of the tests, as does ethofumesate which has never been used on any of these fields.
     
  20. Richard III

    Richard III Member

    Location:
    CW5 Cheshire
    Wow, really makes you wonder just what you can and can't believe!

    I know it is far more complex than this, but 341mm of rain is 3,410,000 l/Ha of water, and let's say you applied 1200g/Ha of glyphosate. Then 1200g in 3,410,000 l is 352 ug/l of glyphosate, compared to the 3800 ug/l measured, plus the AMPA as well.

    May be my maths is wrong, it's a long time since I left school.

    @Feldspar
     
    Pedders and Will Blackburn like this.

Share This Page