what wormer as summer goes on?

[Poorbuthappy]

Yes JD certainly consider breeding as part of tackling the problem. You told me about that stud breeder last year and gave me their website - very interesting.
Only nemo been an issue so far this year which is not a problem to treat. Been a tough winter and spring and both ewes and lambs are not looking as good as other years, but I'm convinced the breeding changes are a step in the right direction on what is sure to be a long road. But hopefully I can make use of the work others have already done in this area to speed progress.

 

[JD-Kid]

yea we notice there rams from that stud don't seem to melt as much some others seem to BUT not 100% sure maybe useing a lot of engey to fight off worms showing nothing in FEC so even tho they could be adding nothing to the system there output in other areas falls down

did see it a few years back in lambs one lot did no gains or lost weight yet no FEC other lot gained weight with a low FEC count which was intresting as if just going off weight the ones doing no gain you would say had worms ,witch they mayhave but were controling them

alot to do with mangerment sounds strange but if we put drench caps in ewes and hammered paddocks we could lower numbers quite a bit at that level the flocks immunine system maybe better able to handle the levels

i think thats what we are starting to see happen here with our mangerment diffrent to last guy

 

[Devil's advocate]

As I thought, yours is quite a unique situation. Be careful with the pp, and be aware I have heard of resistant worms surviving the plough.
I would still talk in terms of managing the worm population, even in your situation. But you have more weapons in your armoury such that you shouldn't need to rely on wormers, so with careful management resistance shouldn't be a problem.

Do you use fecs?

Had FEC done for first time this year. It showed we had white wormer resistant worms, sample was sent for cocidiosis, we had a few of them too. Not treated for cocidiosis since 1986 (but similar year, turned lambs out & had to bring them back in again). Lambs still dirty used white wormer, cocidiosis drench & now yellow wormer. In past years would expect to send first draw to market before we started worming.

 

[JD-Kid]

our frist lambs off mum undrenched BUT ewes all drenched pre lamb so lowering numbers a bit

if and it's a big if we had the time and system working fully to track hoggets may mean alot of re runs in scales say ones doing OK 2nd time round draft them off then recheck gains FEC check them etc etc etc would start to show up ones that could handle worm levels

long term think there are alot of areas
drenchs makeing sure they work and used right ,hands up who checks there gun's or even fully knows the weight of flock drenching to the hightest weight each time
trace elements etc needed for sheeps iminue system
breeding culling out ones that don't handle the system also breed and breeders some breeds better at copeing with worm levels
grazeing type of plants etc hight of grazeing rotation etc can all make a diffrence
know years ago 60+ years ago some farmers had mustard for fodder put wormy lambs on that and seemed to clear up gas in gut i'm guessing some other plants may boost iminue system

like GO is saying back in to a wormy paddock could that be used as part of mangerment get them to dump out any worms after drench then plow the paddock up for a crop

 

[Funnywaytmekalivin]

I think as we understand more about how worms work we will start trying to keep a "healthy" population of worms rather than just trying to kill as many worms as possible.

 

[Jop]

How about a reseed that has been direct drilled? Would this clean the pasture or would there have to be some sort of break crop.
We tested for resistance last year and found we had resistance to white and clear drenches, we tested through the healthy livestock scheme and we were completely unaware of the problem we had. For anyone who hasn't tested for resistance I would definitely recommend it even if there is no apparent problem.

 

[Devil's advocate]

How about a reseed that has been direct drilled? Would this clean the pasture or would there have to be some sort of break crop.
We tested for resistance last year and found we had resistance to white and clear drenches, we tested through the healthy livestock scheme and we were completely unaware of the problem we had. For anyone who hasn't tested for resistance I would definitely recommend it even if there is no apparent problem.

I would think a break from sheep for at least 12 months. Perhaps less serious if you are only seeking a reduction.

I still favour killing the lot. So how many years arable for 100% kill of worms, how about using Basameid or Telone if potatoes & brassica are in arable rotation? How long can a sheep go in a clean field before the sheep starts to pick up worm eggs from itself or other flock members?

 

[Jop]

I would think a break from sheep for at least 12 months. Perhaps less serious if you are only seeking a reduction.

I still favour killing the lot. So how many years arable for 100% kill of worms, how about using Basameid or Telone if potatoes & brassica are in arable rotation? How long can a sheep go in a clean field before the sheep starts to pick up worm eggs from itself or other flock members?

I should think this would only bring short term benefits as the percentage of resistant worms would stay unchanged?

But I would say it all depends on conditions? Too many variables to say how long pasture would stay clean for after an arable break. I think it would be a good way to clean up pasture so it could be used at specific times such as early spring with young lambs and ewes so pasture is as clean as can be for them or for weaned lambs that you want to fatten as fast as possible.

 

[Devil's advocate]

I should think this would only bring short term benefits as the percentage of resistant worms would stay unchanged?

But I would say it all depends on conditions? Too many variables to say how long pasture would stay clean for after an arable break. I think it would be a good way to clean up pasture so it could be used at specific times such as early spring with young lambs and ewes so pasture is as clean as can be for them or for weaned lambs that you want to fatten as fast as possible.

I was coming from the angle of trying to eliminate all worms, admit not many could actually do it, but say for experimental purposes. Say if you had a flock of sheep on a farm where the grass was used 95% for the production of hay, haylage, silage or dried grass. If you put the flock on a new clean field every week & in rotation used all 4 worming groups for a year, surely no worms left. Then this super clean flock if put on more clean ground could be kept in a normal manner & would respond very well to worming if done as necessary.

 

[Amcnab]

you need to get out a bit more da

 

[Tim W]

I would think a break from sheep for at least 12 months. Perhaps less serious if you are only seeking a reduction.

I still favour killing the lot. So how many years arable for 100% kill of worms, how about using Basameid or Telone if potatoes & brassica are in arable rotation? How long can a sheep go in a clean field before the sheep starts to pick up worm eggs from itself or other flock members?

12 month break form sheep is the basis of the organic production system and it works for me , both on PP and new leys--but it doesn't get rid of worms altogether
My organic ewes (never wormed) put on a clean pasture at lambing will show a FEC of between 50 and 150 EPG 2 weeks after lambing has finished, the lambs will pick up these worms slowly and get to about 360EPG by 10/12 weeks old, they tend to hover at this level until after xmas when I usually stop doing regular FECs

I have once (when we bought in 350 new ewes) bought in ewes and treated them with 2 anthelmintics (white and clear I think?) , quarantined them on clean stubbles and then lambed them on new clean leys (4 years since sheep were on them last)
These animals still produced the same type of worm egg levels in their lambs over the next season
It seems that no matter how many drenches you use on a sheep you will only kill 99% (if you are lucky) of the worms---and the 1% you don't will soon multiply!

The clean grazing system works very well and is one of the reasons I like an organic system---
Clean grazing=minimal worming(almost zero)
Clean skin= minimal strike (almost zero)
And to my mind that's 2 of the worst problems knocked out---all you have to do then is have sheep that rear twins without too much hassle

 

[JD-Kid]

95-100% is classes as a total kill so in some cases 5% from day one are being passed on thats the prob with single family drenchs ..

 

[Tim W]

True JD, but even with multi drenches you will never kill 100% ---best to live with and manage a low worm population I think

 

[JD-Kid]

yep think the thing is getting down to levels it's not haveing a major impact on output

 

[DB67]

Is Zolvix good? Its something we havent used before and claims to be the best wormer for july/august? There must be a catch...

 

[JD-Kid]

hard on the rare Cockeywallet moth also have seen people getting gorse thorns out of fingers

it's ment to be good same with the other one startec?(?)

 

[JohnGalway]

people getting gorse thorns out of fingers

Can't beat a small sowing needle and some good light, bit of DIY surgery of an evening.

 

[JD-Kid]

ummm so yer have people with gorse in there pockets down in Ireland too

 

[JD-Kid]

DB67 if you have no restance which would be rare but could be the case any drench that is working that targets the worms active at the time of year will do the job

think the new drenchs should not have been single family i think we will hear of restance to them with in a few years if miss used

 

[JohnGalway]

ummm so yer have people with gorse in there pockets down in Ireland too

Pockets, hoods, wellies & socks, jeans, hats, anywhere the feckin stuff can get to it's there! Clearing a lot of land here during Winter and I reckon I'm up to consultant level on DIY needle surgery now