Whats the stabiliser cow of the sheep world?

[Global ovine]

I fully agree about the move to self replacing flocks........
My take is that traits not breeds are the future and that to be certain of acquiring these traits, people will have to approach specific breeders not producers of specific breeds.

Most farmers don't change anything if there is no need. But when the economics of an enterprise collapses, all businessmen get shaken out of complacency. In NZ it happened suddenly, resulting in farmers doing exactly that which is highlighted above. Data coming from UK sector agencies (HCC, Defra, AHDB Beef + Lamb) and Ireland has shown a declining trend in livestock farming profitability over the last two decades, and comment on this forum reflects these data. Therefore change can be expected to follow this trend as generational turnover occurs. If the UK get a sudden fright on top of the underlining decline, change may also be spectacular as it was in NZ.
Many farmers in NZ did not change breeds, but soon found breeders whose goals and management systems matched their own. Consequently the majority of rams of major breeds are now sold by fewer than 100 breeders. Composite breeds developed in the last 3 decades and now are making a significant impact. But again these are driven by a small number of breeders who offer farmers a different ratio of traits.

 

[Bury the Trash]

A lot of what's on this thread has been said several times, best to get and do it rather than keep talking about it, breed your own that is , why always rely on others and what they are selling .?

 

[Global ovine]

A lot of what's on this thread has been said several times, best to get and do it rather than keep talking about it, breed your own that is , why always rely on others and what they are selling .?

Then go for it unless you haven't got the resources that some breeders already have and have established a track record for delivering traits of economic importance.

 

[Agrivator]

But the Scotch Mule, which is the most successful world-renowned hybrid since time began, generally has a poorer BCS than the average of its two parents. But I suppose that's because of its very high productivity, which in turn has made it the most sought-after and expensive cross to the extent that many folk can't afford to buy them. ?

Is that not an oxymoron?

I've never heard of an Oxymoron. Sounds more like a cross between an Oxford and an Exmoor Horn, but I could be wrong.

And the more I think about it, why did it take so long for the Suffolk to supplant the Oxford?

 

[Agrivator]

Mornin' Dave!

Surprising amount of interest from traditionally arable systems wanting to use livestock in their rotations
If you are young and want to get into lamb production then ''head east'' is what i would recommend
Over the next 20 years sheep will move from the hills/less favored areas to the lowland arable areas

The trouble is, they'll need to spend a bit on fences, unless there's a resurgence in the wicker-gate industry. Without either, they'll need a shepherd with time to sit up all night herding them onto mangolds. Or if they try to do their own shepherding in a fashion, they'll soon realise that breeding ewes are twice the work for half the return of other enterprises.

And if sheep are still profitable in those situations, they''ll be even more profitable on cheaper hill/upland farms, where traditional farmers will stick with the trusted and tried breeds. And there will still be plenty of good quality store lambs for your arable men to buy.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

The trouble is, they'll need to spend a bit on fences, unless there's a resurgence in the wicker-gate industry. Without either, they'll need a shepherd with time to sit up all night herding them onto mangolds. Or if they try to do their own shepherding in a fashion, they'll soon realise that breeding ewes are twice the work for half the return of other enterprises.

And if sheep are still profitable in those situations, they''ll be even more profitable on cheaper hill/upland farms, where traditional farmers will stick with the trusted and tried breeds. And there will still be plenty of good quality store lambs for your arable men to buy.

Livestock can easily add profit more in the crops to follow them, than they make as a commodity in their own right. That would represent a considerable opportunity for an arable farmer IMO, as you say the sheep could be more profitable on the cheaper land but that maybe the only income the upland farmer has available.

Fencing is pretty cheap

 

[Tim W]

The trouble is, they'll need to spend a bit on fences, unless there's a resurgence in the wicker-gate industry. Without either, they'll need a shepherd with time to sit up all night herding them onto mangolds. Or if they try to do their own shepherding in a fashion, they'll soon realise that breeding ewes are twice the work for half the return of other enterprises.

And if sheep are still profitable in those situations, they''ll be even more profitable on cheaper hill/upland farms, where traditional farmers will stick with the trusted and tried breeds. And there will still be plenty of good quality store lambs for your arable men to buy.

Electric fence
Share farming opportunity
Subsidy reduction

 

[NZDan]

From social media, there's at least 2 farms in NZ developing woolly sheep which shed on the tail, beech and belly. Still have a wool crop with no docking crutching or belly clipping.

There is even a Low input CPT going ;-).
Ram lambs not docked, FEC tested at 1000 and 2000epg, dag score recorded, tail length, tail bareness, resilience, Feed efficiency and methane emissions, weight, hogget estrus, EMA, will or have all been recorded. Results from the 1st lamb drop should be available shortly.

 

[NZDan]

Yeah that would be what you mostly get with first cross..... the shearers love them!
But fleece isn't huge so it would need to be real quality to stack up I'd have thought.

Some of the country in NZ would be absolutely perfect for full shedders, esp given the scale of both the land and the flocks!

I've got both a full shedding flock and a bare pointed undocked flock, in fact i haven't docked a lamb in over 20 years, performance is similar in the two flocks, the cleanskins have better lamb survival and the woolies have slightly better growth rate.

 

[NZDan]

But the Scotch Mule, which is the most successful world-renowned hybrid since time began, generally has a poorer BCS than the average of its two parents. But I suppose that's because of its very high productivity, which in turn has made it the most sought-after and expensive cross to the extent that many folk can't afford to buy them. ?

That surprises me, as it is not what I've observed. Under what conditions were the 3 breeds run together to compare BCS? What was the average BCS and weight of the 3 breeds?

 

[NZDan]

Is that where the Beltex went in NZ ?

No, I'm not sure a Beltex would survive there, they operate a once in a life time drench policy. I regularly share rams with Avalon, they used my Finns early on to reduce tail length and we've often bought Texels in partnership. Last Avalon Texel ram I used lambs all with dag score 0 even when the mob worm average was 1300epg fec. I've a Avalon Ultimate ram our with FinnTexel ewes this year before him and one of my rams head of to the Low input CPT.

 

[Global ovine]

Breeders in the Low Input Group all have very similar goals they wish to achieve. It is not which breeds and how much of each that is important, but the traits that their mix turns up that most suit the breeding goals. This is what probably all composite breeders in NZ do whatever name they call their final product. Most NZ Composites are also open ended, so if long term trends demand more or less of a trait, these breeders can move to such goals.

I have fielded numerous questions from breeders lately exploring ways to fine up the fleeces on NZ's main 3 strong woolled breeds (Romney, Coopworth and Perendale) which collectively represent over 70% of NZ's breeding ewes. This is because over the last 30 years the relativity of strong wool income to meat has crashed from around 50 : 50 to less than 10 : 90. However the fine wool market over the last 20 years has almost kept pace with the meat returns (given a few short spikes and troughs) with a strong future based on demand currently far outstripping supply, in fact limiting demand. If these interested breeders can reduce wool fibre micron currently from 36.8 to sub 26 microns in ewe fleece, wool returns will double. Lambs wool and especially long hogget wool will triple in income if 22 microns, which is achievable out of 26 micron ewes. These breeders don't get their kicks from show ribbons, but by the ram sales to farms choosing them for what they have.

 

[Agrivator]

That surprises me, as it is not what I've observed. Under what conditions were the 3 breeds run together to compare BCS? What was the average BCS and weight of the 3 breeds?

The mule can certainly maintain BCS to compare favourably with its two parents, but it requires a feeding policy to regain the body reserves which are drained by its high productivity.

One trait where the mule certainly scores over its parents, and of many rival breeds and crosses, is that it will follow its very young lambs to the ends of the earth. Or at least to the tail gate of the pickup or trailer. A very valuable trait where sheep are individually shepherded, and where regard is taken in individual excellence.

 

[unlacedgecko]

There is even a Low input CPT going ;-).
Ram lambs not docked, FEC tested at 1000 and 2000epg, dag score recorded, tail length, tail bareness, resilience, Feed efficiency and methane emissions, weight, hogget estrus, EMA, will or have all been recorded. Results from the 1st lamb drop should be available shortly.

CPT?

 

[unlacedgecko]

Electric fence
Share farming opportunity
Subsidy reduction

*sh!t kicking redneck professional fly grazer enter stage left*

 

[NZDan]

CPT?

Central Progeny Test

 

[Oldmacdonald]

One trait where the mule certainly scores over its parents, and of many rival breeds and crosses, is that it will follow its very young lambs to the ends of the earth. Or at least to the tail gate of the pickup or trailer. A very valuable trait where sheep are individually shepherded, and where regard is taken in individual excellence.

I think that is debatable.

 

[Bob the beef]

The mule can certainly maintain BCS to compare favourably with its two parents, but it requires a feeding policy to regain the body reserves which are drained by its high productivity.

One trait where the mule certainly scores over its parents, and of many rival breeds and crosses, is that it will follow its very young lambs to the ends of the earth. Or at least to the tail gate of the pickup or trailer. A very valuable trait where sheep are individually shepherded, and where regard is taken in individual excellence.

I would have agreed with your defence of the mule ewe 25 years or so ago but sadly now that is not the case. Both parents of the mule whether that isScotch or NE , are being bred purely for vanity and absolutely no consideration paid to performance growth or maternal traits.

IIRC there are only 2 blackie breeders performance recording and probably no more than half a dozen BFL doing likewise.

When a tups value is determined by how much it’s father, grandfather or whatever relative made in the sale ring in the past, that breed is fudged in the future.

If you don’t measure it, you can’t manage it.

Vanity only ever leads to insanity

 

[Bob the beef]

The mule can certainly maintain BCS to compare favourably with its two parents, but it requires a feeding policy to regain the body reserves which are drained by its high productivity.

One trait where the mule certainly scores over its parents, and of many rival breeds and crosses, is that it will follow its very young lambs to the ends of the earth. Or at least to the tail gate of the pickup or trailer. A very valuable trait where sheep are individually shepherded, and where regard is taken in individual excellence.

I would have agreed with your defence of the mule ewe 25 years or so ago but sadly now that is not the case. Both parents of the mule whether that isScotch or NE , are being bred purely for vanity and absolutely no consideration paid to performance growth or maternal traits.

IIRC there are only 2 blackie breeders performance recording and probably no more than half a dozen BFL doing likewise.

When a tups value is determined by how much it’s father, grandfather or whatever relative made in the sale ring in the past, that breed is fudged in the future.

If you don’t measure it, you can’t manage it.

Vanity only ever leads to insanity

 

[Agrivator]

I would have agreed with your defence of the mule ewe 25 years or so ago but sadly now that is not the case. Both parents of the mule whether that isScotch or NE , are being bred purely for vanity and absolutely no consideration paid to performance growth or maternal traits.

IIRC there are only 2 blackie breeders performance recording and probably no more than half a dozen BFL doing likewise.

When a tups value is determined by how much it’s father, grandfather or whatever relative made in the sale ring in the past, that breed is fudged in the future.

If you don’t measure it, you can’t manage it.

Vanity only ever leads to insanity

The other attribute of the Mule is that unlike any other breed or cross in the Universe, it talks or chunters away to its lambs in the local dialect.

And how would Henry Brewis have been able to portray the various expressions on a ewe's face if he hadn't kept Mules?

Ten Little Pet Lambs by Henry Brewis:

Ten little pet lambs playing in a line
one of them got watery mouth, then there were nine.

Nine little pet lambs, worrying about there mate
one got salmonella and then there were eight.

Eight little pet lambs heard the engine revvin, but they never saw the tractor, then there were seven.

Seven little pet lambs playin games and tricks, one hanged in wire netting, then there were six.

Six little pet lambs glad to be alive, tried swimming in the water-trough, then there were five.

Five, little pet lambs bleatin at the door the farmer lost his temper then there were four.

Four little pet lambs as sweet as you could see one died of bloody awkwardness then there were three.

Three little pet lambs wonderin what to do ate a bag of barley meal and then there were two.

Two little pet lambs the smallest one set on to a ewe who went and sat on it then there was one.

One little pet lamb surprisingly got fat so we put him in the freezer and that was the end of that .....