Whats the stabiliser cow of the sheep world?

[Kiwi Pete]

A Snowliner. The Ranger is a terminal from the same out fit.

Snowlines were awesome here on the lowlands. Blew my tiny mind regarding both profitability and possibility.

As you and Murray have commented I'm unsure of their fit in the UK as things stand now, but that could easily shift in time.
We had an unusually high incidence of triplets in our little mob; which, although not entirely down to the ewes, could easily mean lower grading carcasses in some systems, or more work. 35% of our two-tooths reared triplets

 

[NZDan]

This is what we do at Exlana ---''Genetics not Cosmetics''
Dags & wool gone
Proven high parasite resistance
Tails getting shorter

Allan Richardson came to see us in '80's (?) on what i think was his Nuffield trip to see our low input/organic system and the way we used Wiltshires
He went home to develop the successful Avalon base ---just surprised it has taken the commercial Kiwi shepherds so long to get interested in woolless systems , proves that they are just as locked in by tradition as we are

Yes i think you're right.
The emotional attachment to wool is incredibly strong, even though strong wool is currently at best break even and probably a loss ram buyers will still happily sacrifice growth, or survival or input traits to retain a good fleece, which will still loose them money, as well as the money they have missed out on with the other traits.

 

[Agrivator]

There's truth in that of course, but looking in as a neighbour, I may consider someone to be running a good operation, but actually they're losing money, whilst another may appear a Heath Robinson outfit, but is actually making good money.

I'm not particularly interested in my neighbour's profits, but I might have an opinion on whether or not they're running a decent, sensible and reasonably good welfare system. Most of us will have or will have had a farmer in the locality who has no right whatsoever to keep livestock, but who might be farm assured and who presumes to be setting some sort of trend for their stick-in-the-mud neighbouring lagards.

In a former life as an Agricultural Advisory and Development Officer with SAC in Scotland, I have known a number of such embarrassing cases. And if the farm with 45 enclosures is near the Starchur I am familiar with, near Lephinmore on Loch Fyne in Argyllshire, such a system would not only be a disaster, it would be a severe welfare issue.

As a point of interest, Lephinmore was a wet hill farm run by the former Hill Farming Research Organisation. It was where the late Sandy Whitelaw significantly reduced and more-or-less eliminated a severe fluke problem by a concerted summer-dosing policy. And that did have the appreciation of the local and wider farming community.

 

[Nithsdale]

In general though, if you see someone out doing something, it's a loss-making activity.

I'll need to mind that. Good excuse to have another cuppa

 

[NZDan]

I'm not particularly interested in my neighbour's profits, but I might have an opinion on whether or not they're running a decent, sensible and reasonably good welfare system. Most of us will have or will have had a farmer in the locality who has no right whatsoever to keep livestock, but who might be farm assured and who presumes to be setting some from of trend for their stick-in-the-mud neighbouring lagards.

In a former life as an Agricultural Advisory and Development Officer with SAC in Scotland, I have known a number of such embarrassing cases. And if the farm with 45 enclosures is near the Starchur I am familiar with, near Lephinmore on Loch Fyne in Argyllshire, such a system would not only be a disaster, it would be a severe welfare issue.

As a point of interest, Lephinmore was a wet hill farm run by the former Hill Farming Research Organisation. It was where the late Sandy Whitelaw significantly reduced and more-or-less eliminated a severe fluke problem by a concerted summer-dosing policy. And that did have the appreciation of the local and wider farming community.

What were your thoughts on how Lephinmore was run while the HFRO had it?

 

[Agrivator]

What were your thoughts on how Lephinmore was run while the HFRO had it?

It will be one of the lowest ''hill' farms in mainland Scotland. Relatively flat, very wet and poorly -drained hill with predominantly Mollinia, Nardus, Common Rush, together with the more valuable cotton grass/draw moss (Eriophorum Vaginatum), and with stool bent (Juncus Squarrosus) and fescues on the drier areas. I can't remember seeing a lot of heather - I was more concerned with using rushes to cross wet bits without falling in and ruining my expensive garb.

Why HFRO should have chosen such a difficult farm is a mystery, and I feel sure they regretted having done so. It's the type of farm suited only to a capable dedicated sheep farmer whose DNA contains the collective wisdom of previous generations. And someone who might also keep a few Luing cows.

As far as I could gather, nothing of any value other than the 'Liver Fluke' work came out of it. But there might be other hill farmers from that area on here who could amend or correct what I have just written.

And just to check if there are any real hill famers on here. Has anyone experienced Grouse the size of Turkeys, and Sheep the size of Buffalo when on hill ground under certain weather conditions? And no, I haven't finally lost the plot.

 

[Woolless]

They have been considered, but the goals the Avalon Ultimate are bred to achieve do not all mesh with the goals, that in my mind, the majority of the UK market may consider important, so other trait leading NZ developed composites have been exported to the UK. These traits include high unassisted lambing and weaning % under high density stocking, visually meaty carcass, fast growth rate, valued wool income with resistance to worms and foot rot.
The Avalon Ultimate is probably as advanced as any NZ breeding programme has got to breeding a nil management cost sheep that still has wool income by eliminating tail docking, crutching and low value fleece components. The disease resistance goals overlap but are more developed in the Ultimate by selection under a more extreme challenge. Such sheep suit low input hill country. A situation I consider could be catered for by some existing British native breeds, or developed from them.

If the future economics of UK farming only allow for nil or near nil input farming, then the Avalon Ultimate could have a significant place. However it all comes back to the goals the commercial farmer desires. Think traits, not breeds.

The problem with nil input in this country, as I'm sure that you're aware, is that I doubt public sentiment/farm assurance or welfare regs would allow it.

 

[unlacedgecko]

The problem with nil input in this country, as I'm sure that you're aware, is that I doubt public sentiment/farm assurance or welfare regs would allow it.

But sheep can be bred in a "nil input mentality" without contravening the above.

Simply cull any animal requiring individual treatment.

 

[Woolless]

But sheep can be bred in a "nil input mentality" without contravening the above.

Simply cull any animal requiring individual treatment.

That's true. Not the simplicity of the NZ 'what survives survives' system, although I suppose some hill flocks won't be far off that.

 

[Guleesh]

That's true. Not the simplicity of the NZ 'what survives survives' system, although I suppose some hill flocks won't be far off that.

With eid tagging and recording I think it's getting pretty hard to justify even the most remote hill flocks being run like that.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

But sheep can be bred in a "nil input mentality" without contravening the above.

Simply cull any animal requiring individual treatment.

That's how it all works on the plains, the cheetah doesn't trim the feet and let it go.

Costs FA to run a mob of gazelle on this regime.

 

[easyram1]

@Global ovine @easyram1 @NZDan Are the Avalon genetics being brought over to the Uk?

As some will know we are now going down the route of producing specific NZ based maternal composite sheep that we will sell as "EasyDams". Over the last 4 years we have been actively working on this project and fairly early on we spoke to the Avalon Ultimate flockowners. So our normal process is to ask the Kiwi breeders to test their stock rams to see if any are Scrapie Group 1 ( ARR/ARR ) for preference or possibly Group 2 ( ARR/ARQ ) because if the sire is a Group3 or worse he cannot sire a Group 1 sheep that we can import.Unfortunately this particular Scrapie resistance hurdle meant that at the time we could not proceed further with Avalon sheep.
Next with the assistance of @Global ovine we identified other flocks that met our criteria namely consistent high performance on SIL Maternal Indexes and robust management systems with large sized flocks. Philippa and I visited in 2018 after which we imported rams and ewes from 3 flocks and then earlier this year Nick and Menna visited these and other flocks whilst they were on honeymoon.
The 2018 imported sheep were all in the top 5% on SIL Maternal Index ( dead lucky). We believe that by dealing with a number of flocks we will be able to maintain genetic diversity with our EasyDam breeding programme which would be very difficult if only using rams from 1 flock due to the comparative shortage of Scrapie Resistant sheep in any one flock
As a final sales pitch a few EasyDam rams were sold lat year but there will be plenty of Shearlings available this season

 

[Bury the Trash]

still chugging away.

this one Exlana x Exlana and has shed fair already, so no shearing hurray.
not 12 months old yet either,
Southdown lambs

a few not eartagged either , apologies .



My Question is , Is Exlana a composite or not ?

 

[Tim W]

My Question is , Is Exlana a composite or not ?

Who knows?
Who cares?

It's a maternal ewe bred for profitable traits with selection criteria based on proven performance recorded in a stud flock farmed under high pressure
We are not adverse to bringing/trying new /fresh genetics if we think they may bring desirable traits

Categorize it as you wish

 

[neilo]

Who knows?
Who cares?

It's a maternal ewe bred for profitable traits with selection criteria based on proven performance recorded in a stud flock farmed under high pressure
We are not adverse to bringing/trying new /fresh genetics if we think they may bring desirable traits

Categorize it as you wish

Surely you’re missing an opportunity, with all these folk seemingly getting interested in shedding sheep? You could easily form a breed society to maintain a ‘pedigree’ flock book, charging membership and registration fees. Hell, you could even promote them through show classes at Ag shows, which could be like your shop window.

I don’t know why nobody’s thought of doing it before.

 

[Tim W]

Surely you’re missing an opportunity, with all these folk seemingly getting interested in shedding sheep? You could easily form a breed society to maintain a ‘pedigree’ flock book, charging membership and registration fees. Hell, you could even promote them through show classes at Ag shows, which could be like your shop window.

I don’t know why nobody’s thought of doing it before.

Mandatory, retrospective membership fees apply.... didn't you all read the small print?

 

[exmoor dave]

I'll need to mind that. Good excuse to have another cuppa

Got the beers out in the lambing shed today..... neigbours are out grass harrowing a field to death ?

 

[exmoor dave]

Surely you’re missing an opportunity, with all these folk seemingly getting interested in shedding sheep? You could easily form a breed society to maintain a ‘pedigree’ flock book, charging membership and registration fees. Hell, you could even promote them through show classes at Ag shows, which could be like your shop window.

I don’t know why nobody’s thought of doing it before.

@neilo I imagine you would pay good money, just like me, to see @Tim W dressed up in white coat with a little tame halter trained sheep, the pair of them merrily skipping around a Ag show ground ?????

 

[Nithsdale]

Got the beers out in the lambing shed today..... neigbours are out grass harrowing a field to death ?

Spent... sorry, wasted!, today chasing some other whures Blackie hoggs. Getting them out of amongst my hoggs and off my farm!!

Those barstewards should be consigned to history - along with the shepherdlesser bloody owners

 

[Tim W]

@neilo I imagine you would pay good money, just like me, to see @Tim W dressed up in white coat with a little tame halter trained sheep, the pair of them merrily skipping around a Ag show ground ?????

I could tell you a story about me showing cattle but you'll have to wait cuz it's not for a public forum ?