Where has all the money gone &what to do about it.

[lazy farmer]

I am by nature a thinker and by extension a worrier.
The above is my current subject not of choice but repetition.

Currently in first world economies and I am including China in this more and more assets are controlled by fewer and fewer people.more and more political power is controlled by fewer and fewer people and the people’s of these countries are thrashing about looking for people to blame whether that’s through politicians espousing the politics of far and envy or just total disillusionment with the road travelled and the road ahead.

So how did we get here?how is it fair example that I pay a lower rate of tax on a large proportion of my profits than my staff. How can that be right. How can it be right that the proportion of incomes spent on housing has risen to the point where home ownership is beyond the means of many?There are many many other examples of the inherent unfairness of the current situation.

So what is to be done?
Carry on as now with trickle down economics?
Increase tax on the rich and risk them leaving for a more tax friendly country?
Increase the living wage and risk increasing unemployment?
Have the government of the day increase in work benefits and risk big government debt increases?
Renationalise many of the industries sold off during the 80s and 90s? So we can all benefit from their profits but then risk inefficient management and lack of innovation?

All this needs to be done against the back ground of the death of the high st and the rise of the robot.

Massive challenges that will threaten society as we know it if we are not fair and equitable in the future.

 

[ollie989898]

Tax the hell out of companies and find better ways to get money out of rich people.

 

[lazy farmer]

Tax the hell out of companies and find better ways to get money out of rich people.

Companies would just move or is that not true?

Look at what trump is doing to American companies and their Chinese supply chains. Their scrabbling around either repatriating production or moving it to Vietnam.

 

[ollie989898]

Companies would just move or is that not true?

Look at what trump is doing to American companies and their Chinese supply chains. Their scrabbling around either repatriating production or moving it to Vietnam.

Trump cant stop anything. Its a global village now. Let him keep trying all ge is doing is speeding up the decline of the USA.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Pay yourself first .

That's our 'advantage' as business owners, ie we get to pay all the expenses before tax - just some take it too far and then have nothing left for their own clan, but have made all those around them more profitable.
Most of these big businesses getting properly rich, don't hand out all their takings to avoid taxes, but pay their execs large salaries instead (often regardless of performance) as a way to spread it within their company.

However the average employee and even many small businesspeople buck the trend by loose spending, and then it's gone - it's called "living outside your means", a proper first world problem.

The logical end point is a complete revolution, a credit crisis, and war - taxing the rich won't work for a variety of reasons, firstly because they wrote the rules in the beginning, and secondly because they aren't going to hang around out of sentimentality if there is somewhere better to operate

 

[brigadoon]

I am by nature a thinker and by extension a worrier.
The above is my current subject not of choice but repetition.

So how did we get here?how is it fair example that I pay a lower rate of tax on a large proportion of my profits than my staff. How can that be right.

I don't think it is right actually - meaning that the statement is incorrect rather than morally wrong - unless of course I have my arithmetic incorrect, (you must be paying your staff well into the 40% tax band to make it correct)

How can it be right that the proportion of incomes spent on housing has risen to the point where home ownership is beyond the means of many?There are many many other examples of the inherent unfairness of the current situation.

So what is to be done?

Loosen the planning laws to allow more land to be built on.

Renationalise many of the industries sold off during the 80s and 90s? So we can all benefit from their profits but then risk inefficient management and lack of innovation?

I certainly cannot recall there ever being much debate over where to spend any profits in the past.

All this needs to be done against the back ground of the death of the high st and the rise of the robot.

The death of the High Street is , in part at least, being driven by an illogical taxation system

 

[oil barron]

People have to get past the idea that corporation profit is going to the CEO. Anyone can buy into a publicly traded company and benefit from the profits. It is like communism but with the benefit of competition.

 

[Goweresque]

how is it fair example that I pay a lower rate of tax on a large proportion of my profits than my staff.

How are you managing that? If you are a sole trader then you pay the same tax rates on profits as the employees do on their incomes. Yes PAYE employees do pay more NI contributions than the self employed, but then they get more benefits - holiday pay, sick pay, minimum wages, employment rights etc, none of which the self employed get.

 

[Bill the Bass]

People have to get past the idea that corporation profit is going to the CEO. Anyone can buy into a publicly traded company and benefit from the profits. It is like communism but with the benefit of competition.

The only people who can buy shares are those with disposable income - I think you miss the point of the thread...

 

[ford4000]

Balance of trade deficit, that's how China and other countries that were poor 70 years ago improved their wealth massively, by exporting more than they import!
The UK on the other hand....

 

[DrWazzock]

Greed and selfishness.
We need to be less greedy and less selfish and also realise that there is more to life than money.
I honestly think we ought to rebuild our nuclear engineering capability within a nationalised framework. Same for steel and coal. Its a bit like this farm. The beast don't pay when considered on their own but the manure helps the other crops. That's how nationalised industries work. They leak cash, but that cash waters other businesses. Better at any rate than just printing money.

 

[oil barron]

The only people who can buy shares are those with disposable income - I think you miss the point of the thread...

Maybe. But if you think someone is going to come along and wave a magic wind to make everything fair you are going to be waiting a long time. The Eastern Europeans were poorer than dirt coming out of the Soviet Union now they are steadily building wealth from UK companies. The British public are going the other way.

 

[celtis man]

The biggest problem I see is no bugger wants to work
The public all want jam today and to hell with tomorrow

 

[brigadoon]

How are you managing that? If you are a sole trader then you pay the same tax rates on profits as the employees do on their incomes. Yes PAYE employees do pay more NI contributions than the self employed, but then they get more benefits - holiday pay, sick pay, minimum wages, employment rights etc, none of which the self employed get.

The employer also pays NI on the employees wages , which (despite Gordon Browns protestations) is a part of the tax burden on the business and should be included as such

 

[Bill the Bass]

View attachment 803176

Maybe. But if you think someone is going to come along and wave a magic wind to make everything fair you are going to be waiting a long time. The Eastern Europeans were poorer than dirt coming out of the Soviet Union now they are steadily building wealth from UK companies. The British public are going the other way.

I don’t ‘think’ anything, just sharing my own observations of the relatively cash strapped middle class. They live in big houses, wear designer clothes and drive high end cars but haven’t really got a pot to pee in.

 

[oil barron]

I don’t ‘think’ anything, just sharing my own observations of the relatively cash strapped middle class. They live in big houses, wear designer clothes and drive high end cars but haven’t really got a pot to pee in.

That would suggest disposable income or lack of is not the problem.

 

[lazy farmer]

How are you managing that? If you are a sole trader then you pay the same tax rates on profits as the employees do on their incomes. Yes PAYE employees do pay more NI contributions than the self employed, but then they get more benefits - holiday pay, sick pay, minimum wages, employment rights etc, none of which the self employed get.

We have a legitimate(justifiable) company as part of the partnership.

 

[capfits]

Heard a sad tale on radio yesterday which illustrates the economic mindset of many in UK.
A couple had "bought" a £40k car, (leased) 3 months after the husband dies, she is pregnant and not working.
In her time of distress with a lot on her plate she speaks to lease company about handing car back. No can do comes back you have to pay a break fee or keep on lease.
They had no cash in reserve, and no contingencies for anything happening to either of them.
Life on tick, looked good but in reality it was precarious.
So what to do definitely not cut taxes that is madness, ( but then there is plenty of that about)

 

[Ukjay]

Heard a sad tale on radio yesterday which illustrates the economic mindset of many in UK.
A couple had "bought" a £40k car, (leased) 3 months after the husband does, she is pregnant and not working.
In her time of distress with a lot on her plate she speaks to lease company about handing car back. No can do comes back you have to pay a break fee or keep on lease.
They had no cash in reserve, and no contingencies for anything happening to either of them.
Life on tick, looked good but in reality it was precarious.
So what to do definitely not cut taxes that is madness, ( but then there is plenty of that about)

But, if they had read the contract in the first place - they would not be in that problem...
Far too many look to blame others for where they end up, when in reality it is actually the choices we make daily that is the true at fault part.

Too many are living in a dream, trying to live the life of people with far more expendable money than they have, then continue to borrow more and more (credit is good until your over your head), spiralling out of control to the point it implodes.

 

[onthehoof]

There’s a lot of keeping up with the Jones’ in this country trouble is most of the Jones’ are trying to keep up with the Smiths.
Jam today and worry about tomorrow when it gets here.