Where's all cattle gone?

[JP1]

@milkloss , genuinely sorry if your in pain, but presume you have entered in medicine book the use of Flucloxocillin ? Maybe incorrectly answering your point @JP1, confused myself in how you were wording your question of any industry charging for their insurance scheme and not swallow in their price. I see it as we are the bottom of the ladder, one of the very few industries that effectively produces a product, and then gets told what price we will receive, imagine going into a restaurant and telling them there are a few restaurants with quite a bit of fillet around so I will pay you a fiver less for the same steak as I ate last week, thanks. So we cant pass on or absorb the price in a pricing structure, as we don't have that say. True a mechanic, plumber, builder, butcher, baker or a sodding candlestick maker wont list on his bill and x pound extra for this scheme or expense, but sure as hell the cost of such expense will be past on and that profession will not be x pound down at the end of the day, it will always be the bottom of the food chain that the costs will be paid by, always has been, always will be, natural, costs are passed on to protect margins, obviously, until there is no one else to pass the cost onto

I understand that. From what I see in, say, the motor industry is that manufacturers compete, customer expectations increase and regulations on emissions, safety, traceability, environmental criterion etc. So they either step up to the plate or go the way of Michael Edwards and his Metro and square steering wheel Allegro?

 

[gone up the hill]

Just the one

she prob has a pic of me on her office door which she throws darts at every time she reads what im posting on TFF about the AHDB

 

[gone up the hill]

I might be dumb and not even at the rank of hobby farmer but of course I understand the difference between price maker and taker. Do you not think that's why folks invent brands to sustainably add value even in your industry?

In fact cameras input costs have gone up 17-20% (thanks Brexiteers) but if your competition isn't raising their prices, how does that one work?

What if you were challenged by the USA to prove farm assurance before trade could commence and there wasn't assurance in place? Could you do it cheaper yourself?

And to finish the point, I might not be a proper farmer but everything I have is bought and paid for out of PAYE, nothing inherited, no sub and my keyboard is as valid as your's.

One thing I can assure you is that provenance and proper marketing will be much more important in the future and if you really think post Brexit there will be less not more controls you very much mistaken. Even Gove stated he wanted to at least preserve all the environmental protection measures in place now.

USA has NO where near the rules/ welfare standards of the UK farming industry for starters!

 

[JP1]

Some may reduce costs by exporting production to china, Africa etc where they will still comply with local labour, pollution, bribery laws and yet still be able to provide an ISO 9001 item.

As an example: There's currently some rumbling about moog aviation providing parts for Boeing 737 that have been subcontracted several times so that the producer didn't even know they were engineering crucial aircraft parts. Certificates etc ere fraudulent. It is only a rumour though.

That example shows that not only will production be exported so it is cheaper but it will also increase the likelihood of falsified assurance. Where does that get anybody?

Absolutely and that is why I am very confused by some of the fog horns on here. I'm actually with Sainsburys, I don't think RT is much good. I'd like a really tough PFLA standard to help shoulder my production systems within the UK and I'd like a Government with the cahoonas to take on every EU state and every other competitor who doesn't meet minimum standards e.g. sow stalls.

Want and get are two different matters. But what would I know, I'm just a wrecker apparently

 

[JP1]

USA has NO where near the rules/ welfare standards of the UK farming industry for starters!

And is that true? And is that good or bad?

 

[gone up the hill]

And is that true? And is that good or bad?

110% true.

Good for the US farmers as they have lower COP so can export cheaper, not so good for the animals thou.

 

[milkloss]

Well the Americans are very proud of their farmers and the USA high grade beef I would choose over an equivalent uk version any day I am sorry to say. Very consistent compared.

 

[Henarar]

she prob has a pic of me on her office door which she throws darts at every time she reads what im posting on TFF about the AHDB

Her eyes light up when you come in to the room

 

[yellowbelly]

Farming is a price taker..

Other industrys are price setters..

I believe it was J.F.Kennedy that summed it up in a nutshell...........
"Agriculture is the only industry that buys retail, sells wholesale and pays the haulage both ways"

 

[JP1]

110% true.

Good for the US farmers as they have lower COP so can export cheaper, not so good for the animals thou.

Well they have ear tagging requirements, vet records and transport regulations. So that would be the basis of a RT type scheme over there wouldn't it?

So you mean hormone growth promoters, chlorine washing of poultry and GM? They are permitted and may be seen as a wider scope of permissions but are farmers any less regulated? I bet US arable farmers are very tightly governed over patents with regard to GM for a start - and I bet that involves licences and folks keeping records.

How sure are you with your 110% on the BURDEN of regulation as opposed to how lax it is?

 

[M-J-G]

Do you NOT understand the difference between price setters and takers??

Farming is a price taker..

Other industrys are price setters..

For example, take your cameras, if the production etc costs of these go up 10% you will just raise your prices 10%, if a farms COP goes up 10% due to farm assurance we CANNOT increase our price by 10% and that is the problem.

Farm assurance is costing the industry millions yet not return even £1 in benefits,.

Pretty much all primary industries are price takers and they are governed by their share of red tape, so let's not kid ourselves and speak like we are the poor cousin.

As for the camera example, it's not comparable, that's just a retailing business. Even you, a primary producer has forgotten to take into account the guy in the malachite mine, how much can he get for his product from the processor. He is the equivalent to the farmer in this case, yet you assume he can demand his price, that is foolish.

 

[gone up the hill]

Well they have ear tagging requirements, vet records and transport regulations. So that would be the basis of a RT type scheme over there wouldn't it?

So you mean hormone growth promoters, chlorine washing of poultry and GM? They are permitted and may be seen as a wider scope of permissions but are farmers any less regulated? I bet US arable farmers are very tightly governed over patents with regard to GM for a start - and I bet that involves licences and folks keeping records.

How sure are you with your 110% on the BURDEN of regulation as opposed to how lax it is?

UK farm assurance goes far and above what you are saying about US farming above.

What they can do would NOT be acceptable under UK farm assurance rules.

Feed lots like they run wouldn't be accepted here for starters let alone GM/ growth promoters etc etc.

 

[M-J-G]

I don't see the problem with anyone going to spend time at the mart if they want to. None of us have to justify our actions as long as we're not bothering anyone else.

Thankfully we're all different. Be a boring world.

I have no problem at all with it either, it's just not something I find time to do on a regular basis. The Stirling bull sales are the exception for me.

 

[JP1]

UK farm assurance goes far and above what you are saying about US farming above.

What they can do would NOT be acceptable under UK farm assurance rules.

Feed lots like they run wouldn't be accepted here for starters let alone GM/ growth promoters etc etc.

Yes - again you spout but don't read

I'm NOT talking about the parameters - they are more likely lax as standards although a few folks on here have cited RT farms that leave a lot to be desired (allegedly)

I'm still coming back to the points from last night about the BURDEN of regulation not the parameters of any particular standard. I still think you're on shaky ground on that one

 

[gone up the hill]

Pretty much all primary industries are price takers and they are governed by their share of red tape, so let's not kid ourselves and speak like we are the poor cousin.

As for the camera example, it's not comparable, that's just a retailing business. Even you, a primary producer has forgotten to take into account the guy in the malachite mine, how much can he get for his product from the processor. He is the equivalent to the farmer in this case, yet you assume he can demand his price, that is foolish.

The camera example is 110% comparable if use JP1's logic!

No other industry is told what it will pay for inputs and told by the buyer what it will get for the produce it sells like the farming industry is.

 

[gone up the hill]

Yes - again you spout but don't read

I'm NOT talking about the parameters - they are more likely lax as standards although a few folks on here have cited RT farms that leave a lot to be desired (allegedly)

I'm still coming back to the points from last night about the BURDEN of regulation not the parameters of any particular standard. I still think you're on shaky ground on that one

I can tell you of plenty of dairy farms around here that are RT assured but no way in hell they should be.

RT is a massive burden on / increase of stress/ cause of bad health of UK farmers for no gain.

RT is basically a licence to farm,

 

[yellowbelly]

As for the camera example, it's not comparable, that's just a retailing business. Even you, a primary producer has forgotten to take into account the guy in the malachite mine, how much can he get for his product from the processor. He is the equivalent to the farmer in this case, yet you assume he can demand his price, that is foolish.

I accept your point but the big difference is the malachite mine can stop mining and re-start if/when prices pick up. If you are growing crops/livestock you just can't switch them on or off - you are locked into a production cycle of at least 12 months for crops and much longer for say suckler bred beef.

 

[Henarar]

I have no problem at all with it either, it's just not something I find time to do on a regular basis. The Stirling bull sales are the exception for me.

No need to go to that the middle one is best

 

[M-J-G]

The camera example is 110% comparable if use JP1's logic!

No other industry is told what it will pay for inputs and told by the buyer what it will get for the produce it sells like the farming industry is.

I didn't realise you had studies commerce to such an extent. Which industry is second to farming?

 

[M-J-G]

No need to go to that the middle one is best

Without doubt, every time!!!