"white" black welsh mountain sheep on the other side of the pond

[heliman500]

Hey Folks,
Reaching out from America and new to this forum. I spent my childhood growing up in North Wales helping the grandfather on the family farm where we farmed welsh mountain sheep. Since leaving the motherland many years ago the passion for sheep farming has come back to haunt me. I am on the quest to establish a breading stock of white welsh mountain sheep. Unfortunately there are no white welsh mountain sheep over here, only a limited pool of black welsh mountain sheep. I am a fan of the black welsh, but prefer the white welsh, ideally a mixed flock would be great. Understandably the genetic differences are much deeper than what meets the eye. Although I have not found any true white welsh sheep over here, I have found a lamb that was born completely white with pure black welsh mountain parents. The big question is does anybody here understand the science behind the genetics of this happening and whether or not the "white" black welsh sheep could predictably produce more white lambs or would it just be a crap shoot? Thanks in advance.
Adam

 

[GrannyAching]

Some questions which might help other posters help you.
Do you just want a hobby flock? Or are you looking for a commercial flock? (If it's just the colour you can mess about for years to create a white flock from black but they might be useless for everything else.)
Is your grazing comparable to hill grazing in the uk?
How far do you want to go in terms of importing etc?
What's available from Canada? I have no idea.

 

[Johngee]

I think the black is dominant in the Black Welsh, so this lambs parents would both be carrying one recessive white gene. Used on other white sheep this lamb would still produce white lambs, but on pure blacks then the lambs would come out black (unless they are carrying a white gene, where 50% of the progeny would be white).

 

[foobar]

The black welsh is a different sheep to the white welsh, not just in colour. Plus, a white sheep coming from a black welsh breeding pair is a faulty gene I suspect, and a black sheep coming from a white welsh breeding pair (via the recessive black gene) is not the same as a black welsh (which is a different gene, a dominant black).

 

[Pasty]

What's wrong with the black ones? If I didn't have Jacob and Wilts, they would be my next target breed. The US can't be that racist. Can it?

 

[GrannyAching]

What's wrong with the black ones? If I didn't have Jacob and Wilts, they would be my next target breed. The US can't be that racist. Can it?

The OP just wants to revisit their childhood memories.Personally, I love the Welsh Black and am sorely tempted by the gorgeous ram on the sh33ppsh3d fb page.

 

[GTB]

I'm no expert but I'd say that the Improved Welsh would be closest equivilent to the Black Welsh Mountain. The Welsh ewes in north wales are nothing like the Black Welsh Mountain.

Not sure what the procedure would be for exporting breeding sheep out of Uk into the states though. Is it even allowed? I know @dogjon is looking into doing something similar with shedding sheep possibly.

 

[Yale]

Might struggle just having one white one.....

 

[heliman500]

Some questions which might help other posters help you.
Do you just want a hobby flock? Or are you looking for a commercial flock? (If it's just the colour you can mess about for years to create a white flock from black but they might be useless for everything else.)
Is your grazing comparable to hill grazing in the uk?
How far do you want to go in terms of importing etc?
What's available from Canada? I have no idea.[/QUOTE

Thanks for the reply GrannyAching. Ultimately it will be a commercial flock, so it would take many years to build unless I did some cross breeding or imported some. Importing could be an option but there is so much to research regarding the process.
The grazing hillside I have is comparable in the winter and spring months, however come summer time the heat stops the grass growing and we have to supplement with hay.

 

[heliman500]

I'm no expert but I'd say that the Improved Welsh would be closest equivilent to the Black Welsh Mountain. The Welsh ewes in north wales are nothing like the Black Welsh Mountain.

Not sure what the procedure would be for exporting breeding sheep out of Uk into the states though. Is it even allowed? I know @dogjon is looking into doing something similar with shedding sheep possibly.

Thanks GTB, I believe it is permitted but cost would be a major factor and I'm still learning the process. The pure black welsh mountain sheep that are over here origininated from 2 rams and about a dozen ewes that were imported back in the 70's

 

[heliman500]

What's wrong with the black ones? If I didn't have Jacob and Wilts, they would be my next target breed. The US can't be that racist. Can it?[/QUOTE

I have the pure black welsh mountains and they are an outstanding breed, but they are simply not the breed I grew up farming

 

[dogjon]

I'm no expert but I'd say that the Improved Welsh would be closest equivilent to the Black Welsh Mountain. The Welsh ewes in north wales are nothing like the Black Welsh Mountain.

Not sure what the procedure would be for exporting breeding sheep out of Uk into the states though. Is it even allowed? I know @dogjon is looking into doing something similar with shedding sheep possibly.

It sounds like the protocols for exporting live sheep are in the works but were a couple of years out last I heard and may all have to be changed after brexit. We can import semen from the UK again at present but the quarantine and isolation time for the rams is insanely long. I plan on looking at some Easy Cares when I am over there next month with an eye to importing some semen but I dont know if it will be financially viable for us. The one shipment I know of that is coming in is mostly Valais Blacknose going to people for whom money is no object. (ponzi sheep) My AI guy who is bringing that in just suffered a serious injury so I dont know if we'll be getting together as planned before we go over or not. Dont know if there are any Welsh Mountain in NZ or Oz but they are open for business and easy to deal with for semen (or embryos if you have deep pockets) imports.

 

[yellowbelly]

It sounds like the protocols for exporting live sheep are in the works but were a couple of years out last I heard and may all have to be changed after brexit. We can import semen from the UK again at present but the quarantine and isolation time for the rams is insanely long

+1 to that
About 8-10 years ago we exported some Lincoln semen to the NLSBA in the US. That supply has almost been exhausted and they would like some more but it appears it's not going to happen as it would mean the tups would have to miss a breeding season here to meet the isolation criteria.

The big question is does anybody here understand the science behind the genetics of this happening and whether or not the "white" black welsh sheep could predictably produce more white lambs or would it just be a crap shoot? Thanks in advance.
Adam

I seem to recall reading somewhere on TFF about the genetic differences between Black Welsh Mountain sheep and Welsh Mountain sheep that were black (genes on a different place on the locus?? and white not dominant over black as with other breeds??) but IIRC it was a long time ago and my search to find it has failed.

 

[yellowbelly]

I seem to recall reading somewhere on TFF about the genetic differences between Black Welsh Mountain sheep and Welsh Mountain sheep that were black (genes on a different place on the locus?? and white not dominant over black as with other breeds??) but IIRC it was a long time ago and my search to find it has failed

@heliman500
Found it
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/black-welsh-mountain.139502/

 

[heliman500]

@heliman500
Found it
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/black-welsh-mountain.139502/

@yellowbelly
Thanks yellowbelly, great Information. Am I right in thinking the isolation requirement was for the ram export, or the semen export too? So as I understand it i could potentially import welsh mountain/Lleyn semen for AI with my black welsh mountain ewes and end up with a 50:50 chance of having "white" black/Llyen welsh cross, is my logic straight?

 

[heliman500]

It sounds like the protocols for exporting live sheep are in the works but were a couple of years out last I heard and may all have to be changed after brexit. We can import semen from the UK again at present but the quarantine and isolation time for the rams is insanely long. I plan on looking at some Easy Cares when I am over there next month with an eye to importing some semen but I dont know if it will be financially viable for us. The one shipment I know of that is coming in is mostly Valais Blacknose going to people for whom money is no object. (ponzi sheep) My AI guy who is bringing that in just suffered a serious injury so I dont know if we'll be getting together as planned before we go over or not. Dont know if there are any Welsh Mountain in NZ or Oz but they are open for business and easy to deal with for semen (or embryos if you have deep pockets) imports.

@dogjon
Thanks Dogjon. Are there strict US import requirements for semen? I have friends still farming in the UK that could possibly assist with the export procedure if needed. Could I bring a semen sample in a storage tank as checked luggage on my next trip back from the UK? Perhaps it is far more complicated than this. Please excuse my ignorance.

 

[dogjon]

The import requirements are very strict. Rams have to be isolated in a certified facility prior to collection. Semen for export has to be stored in separate tanks. As I understand it, rams have to be blood tested 30 days after collection before the semen can be shipped (that's new). Not sure how it is shipped. Martin Dally at Supersire ltd is who you want to talk to but I'm afraid he is laid up with a pretty sever injury right now. As far as I know, he is the only one who has imported semen from the UK under the new protocols and I know it drove him crazy. Also you need to remember that those protocols are subject to change. I know of someone who had Scottish Blackie semen in a tank in Scotland when they shut down the UK imports and since it wasnt collected under the new protocols it cant be exported. Where are you located?

 

[yellowbelly]

Am I right in thinking the isolation requirement was for the ram export, or the semen export too?

As @dogjon says the isolation is for semen export. As far as I'm aware there is a complete ban on live sheep imports into the USA.

So as I understand it i could potentially import welsh mountain/Lleyn semen for AI with my black welsh mountain ewes and end up with a 50:50 chance of having "white" black/Llyen welsh cross, is my logic straight?

Why would you want WM x LLeyn semen? If you're going to all that trouble, surely you want purebred white WM semen. Then ,as far as I understand it (and all I know about WM sheep is in that thread I quoted above), half your lambs will be black and half white. Just how the F1 generation would then breed, I expect, depends on the inheritance/domination of the unusual black gene arrangement in the Black Welsh Mountain.
In the presence of a live import ban your best option would be to import some White Welsh Mountain embryos - but they are probably banned too

Let's just blame Trump - everybody else does.

Good luck

 

[heliman500]

The import requirements are very strict. Rams have to be isolated in a certified facility prior to collection. Semen for export has to be stored in separate tanks. As I understand it, rams have to be blood tested 30 days after collection before the semen can be shipped (that's new). Not sure how it is shipped. Martin Dally at Supersire ltd is who you want to talk to but I'm afraid he is laid up with a pretty sever injury right now. As far as I know, he is the only one who has imported semen from the UK under the new protocols and I know it drove him crazy. Also you need to remember that those protocols are subject to change. I know of someone who had Scottish Blackie semen in a tank in Scotland when they shut down the UK imports and since it wasnt collected under the new protocols it cant be exported. Where are you located?

Thanks @dogjon. The red tape is all starting to make sense now. I was able to talk to Martin at Super Sire today. He had a wealth of information. He said it would still be legally possible, but almost impractical and very costly as a result of the schmallenburg virus that is haunting the U.K. I am located in the Sierra Nevada foothills east of Sacramento. I am pursuing some leads on white welsh mountains in Canada, but it looks like I may just have to expand on the Black Welsh Mounains for the time being. Looks like you're not too far being in Oregon, what breed do you have up there?

 

[heliman500]

As @dogjon says the isolation is for semen export. As far as I'm aware there is a complete ban on live sheep imports into the USA.

Why would you want WM x LLeyn semen? If you're going to all that trouble, surely you want purebred white WM semen. Then ,as far as I understand it (and all I know about WM sheep is in that thread I quoted above), half your lambs will be black and half white. Just how the F1 generation would then breed, I expect, depends on the inheritance/domination of the unusual black gene arrangement in the Black Welsh Mountain.
In the presence of a live import ban your best option would be to import some White Welsh Mountain embryos - but they are probably banned too

Let's just blame Trump - everybody else does.

Good luck

Thanks @yellowbelly The thinking behind importing white or Llyen welsh mountain semen and impregnating a Black Welsh mountain ewe already in the US is that it would be simply easier to AI than deal with embryo fertilization. If I already had a white welsh mountain ewe in the US or even if I could import one then that would be a different story. The link you shared had some great information, thanks for finding that