Whole of Wales to be designated NVZ zone?

[Henarar]

I was just about to say the same.

And those useless bloody things are subsidised 3 times

 

[DRC]

I'm not an intensive dairy farmer but my slurry pit won't hold more than two months worth of slurry.

You’ll need to enlarge it Dai.
We’ve been in it for years and the pig farm I get slurry from has now built a store capable of 6 month storage .
Solid or box muck has less restrictions

 

[GTB]

You’ll need to enlarge it Dai.
We’ve been in it for years and the pig farm I get slurry from has now built a store capable of 6 month storage .
Solid or box muck has less restrictions

I know, and it makes sense to store it for utilisation during the growing period. The problem is of course the cost of doing it. If I had the cash to spare I'd have done it years ago.

 

[DRC]

I know, and it makes sense to store it for utilisation during the growing period. The problem is of course the cost of doing it. If I had the cash to spare I'd have done it years ago.

It’s annoying. We wanted to get some more out, as the ground conditions were perfectly dry a few weeks ago, but had missed the deadline.

 

[Wombat]

Been in an NVZ for years but it's always strange how they designate them, as we came back from the Lakes last weekend there was half a dozen people making snow brown on slopes so they must not be in them which to me always seems a weird one as u would have thoughts the rules on slopes for run off would have been tighter but hey ho

 

[DRC]

Been in an NVZ for years but it's always strange how they designate them, as we came back from the Lakes last weekend there was half a dozen people making snow brown on slopes so they must not be in them which to me always seems a weird one as u would have thoughts the rules on slopes for run off would have been tighter but hey ho

I’ve two of my wettest heavy fields that aren’t in NVZ , because the water drains into Wales.
My lovely dry land I can’t get on, even though it wouldn’t make a mess .

 

[Pasty]

You don't half talk some rubbish.

Why do you have such a hatred of farmers for??

EA been out twice here this winter already. Last bloke was ploughing it in at 2am with them watching. I know for a fact that a neighbour has already been fined as he told me so.

I don't have a hatred of farmers for. I just don't like waiting for 6 months to see fish in our stream again only for it to be wiped out again by some lazy grunt who doesn't give a sh!t.

 

[Bald Rick]

Pot/kettle?
Anyway back on the topic.
Why is it so hard not to spread slurry between the dates or indeed to manage the slurry to maximise nutrient uptake rather than leach it away. Crap infrastructure? Rubbish unsuitable systems.

Because there is no allowance for "heavy rainfall events" - which we are seeing much more often these days. As most slurry stores are open to the elements, a pit can fill overnight. Whilst you could ask NRW for a derogation, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a response.

 

[Tarw Coch]

We've been struggling with our current storage for years because it is such a pita to build new storage and comply with planning/EA regs and to have to do it without any financial support which is available only 20 miles away over the border

Wish I knew what you know.
I'm not far over the border and have been in an NVZ for a few years now. There was absolutely no financial support for building new storage. When we were designated as being in an NVZ and to the very best of my knowledge there hasn't been any since.

 

[Tarw Coch]

Without consulting the rules there are different rules for soil types and off the top of my head our circumstances mean our closed period ends something like Jan 15th.

How are they going to police it as EA staff will have to inspect every visit with WAG staff or they will have to be trained in it meaning routine inspections will take longer.

Have they thought it through including cost implications?

Assuming it's the same as in England you will have to keep detailed records of stock on holding on a monthly basis, amount of N produced in muck, applications of all muck and fertiliser on a field by field basis, all of which can be inspected at any time and if you've made a mistake your records will be used against you.
Sometimes the rules become a PIA as the weather doesn't always play ball. Take a silage field which you apply 3000 gallons of slurry on 7th March, another 2000 on 7th of June after 1st cut with another 2000 after 2nd cut. You are now up to your 12 monthly limit so you can not spread a gallon on that field again before the 7th of March even if the weather is perfectly dry, and it may well be wet after. And assuming you do put another 3000 gallons on in the spring, if 1st cut is a week earlier than the previous year you would have to hold off spreading any slurry for a week rather than getting it straight on after silaging.
Having enough of storage and abiding by the closed periods are the easy part of being in an NVZ, it's the detailed records and ensuring you don't over do your manure applications on a rolling 12 month basis that's a pain in the ass.

 

[funny farm]

Wish I knew what you know.
I'm not far over the border and have been in an NVZ for a few years now. There was absolutely no financial support for building new storage. When we were designated as being in an NVZ and to the very best of my knowledge there hasn't been any since.

There have been in the past schemes available for new and enlarged storage as and when nvz's in England and Scotland have been introduced, my interpretation of the announcement today is that there may be some scheme's that could be introduced in Wales to help us manage the problem of nitrates. The Welsh assembly seem to be finding it difficult to hand the money out as they proved with the milk recording and Welsh benchmarking projects.

 

[boyo]

How quickly will they try and implement it do you think?

 

[GTB]

Being they have so much RDP money left over surely a grant of 60 to 80% should be made available for extra storage

 

[Yale]

Assuming it's the same as in England you will have to keep detailed records of stock on holding on a monthly basis, amount of N produced in muck, applications of all muck and fertiliser on a field by field basis, all of which can be inspected at any time and if you've made a mistake your records will be used against you.
Sometimes the rules become a PIA as the weather doesn't always play ball. Take a silage field which you apply 3000 gallons of slurry on 7th March, another 2000 on 7th of June after 1st cut with another 2000 after 2nd cut. You are now up to your 12 monthly limit so you can not spread a gallon on that field again before the 7th of March even if the weather is perfectly dry, and it may well be wet after. And assuming you do put another 3000 gallons on in the spring, if 1st cut is a week earlier than the previous year you would have to hold off spreading any slurry for a week rather than getting it straight on after silaging.
Having enough of storage and abiding by the closed periods are the easy part of being in an NVZ, it's the detailed records and ensuring you don't over do your manure applications on a rolling 12 month basis that's a pain in the ass.

Luckily being upland we don't get anywhere near the limit,quite a few sheep etc.

Don't forget with it being a records exercise you can tweak some figures.

 

[Cowabunga]

Glad I've made the decision to finish keeping cattle, they pay very little, so no hope of financing a 6 to 7 month covered slurry store?

I am minded the same way, although I had hoped to keep on dairy farming for about five more years.

There will be NO further investment in slurry storage here. Its worked for 40 years and the profitability can not now support further investment without expanding substantially the land area and herd income. Its not going to happen here. No ifs or buts. The volatility in market returns rules it out for me absolutely and without question.

 

[Walterp]

The volatility in market returns rules it out for me absolutely and without question.

I often reflect on the debate that ensued during the last dairy downturn, when the apprehension was that the next milk price upswing might not be sufficiently sustained to repay the capital invested in keeping the job going during the thin times.

How do you think this is panning out, industry-wide, please?

 

[Cowabunga]

I often reflect on the debate that ensued during the last dairy downturn, when the apprehension was that the next milk price upswing might not be sufficiently sustained to repay the capital invested in keeping the job going during the thin times.

How do you think this is panning out, industry-wide, please?

I have not begun to fill the hole in my bank balance made by the last downturn yet and the milk price is about to take another downturn, although hopefully less pronounced than the last one.
To add insult to injury, someone somewhere has decided to send me a tax demand which arrived this morning.

 

[Tarw Coch]

There have been in the past schemes available for new and enlarged storage as and when nvz's in England and Scotland have been introduced, my interpretation of the announcement today is that there may be some scheme's that could be introduced in Wales to help us manage the problem of nitrates. The Welsh assembly seem to be finding it difficult to hand the money out as they proved with the milk recording and Welsh benchmarking projects.

There was funding towards slurry storage in England in the early years of the introduction of NVZ's but hasn't been any for many years now, certainly not when I had to increase slurry storage in 2012, the deadline for when I needed storage constructed or in the few years previous (IIRC we had about 3 years to get it built and with it being a large expenditure at a time when we had already comitted to a lot of other farm improvements it was pushed back as long as possible, a bit of grant funding would have been most welcome)
At that time there was still grants towards slurry storage in Scotland according to the guys from Storth who constructed my store.

Some areas in England have been able to get grants towards things like covering yards to cut down on dirty water in recent years dependant on what river catchment they are in but that didn't include slurry storage.

 

[More to life]

Because there is no allowance for "heavy rainfall events" - which we are seeing much more often these days. As most slurry stores are open to the elements, a pit can fill overnight. Whilst you could ask NRW for a derogation, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a response.

Your capacity is supposed to cover for rainfall for 6 months over winter plus slurry one day should make little difference. The crazy wet year that was 2012 anyone who asked was allowed to bend the rules been in since the start with the very minimum storage it's not the end of the world.

 

[Bald Rick]

Your capacity is supposed to cover for rainfall for 6 months over winter plus slurry one day should make little difference. The crazy wet year that was 2012 anyone who asked was allowed to bend the rules been in since the start with the very minimum storage it's not the end of the world.

Well yes but recently we had a biblical storm that filled our heifer lagoon from virtually empty to almost brimmed. If it did that under NVZ rules, I would have to ask for a derogation or risk spreading rather than cause a point source incident.
It's all rubbish any way to appease the water companies as there has been no cases of blue baby syndrome in the UK and only one in Europe in the 70s.
As I said, it's lazy easy legislation and will affect a lot of dairy & beef farms unnecessarily as we aren't stupid and try not to spread when ground conditions are poor