Why did no-till not take off in the 1980s?

[Y Fan Wen]

I was just wondering if any research has been done on optimum row widths with dd?
I seem to remember that other research showed that there was no loss of yield using tramlines and hence the loss of a couple of rows 'cos the plants beside them produced heavier due to the light penetrating deeper in the lines.
This would suggest that wider rows would not cause a yield penalty.

 

[The_Swede]

Depends on the crop and variety growth habit - NIAB have some good data on this re wheat varieties.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Was Googling for something else and came across this AHDB blog post: http://cereals-blog.ahdb.org.uk/what-went-wrong-with-direct-drill-in-the-1980s/.

In this post there is another link to an ADAS report from the time about direct drilling, which can be seen here: https://cereals.ahdb.org.uk/media/288457/rr5-final-project-report.pdf.

Just wondering if these accounts are accurate, and whether there's any lesson to be taken forward to today's situation?

You obviously haven't studied the AHDB data enough!!! The answer is basically economics. @SilliamWhale came closest in post 10. You didn't have to much of a farmer to make money in the eighties and it therefore didn't concentrate minds enough to make changes. Fortunately as commodity prices fell ( in real terms) the chemical and fertiliser salesmen didn't reduce theirs ( probably in the belief that we'll all carry on regardless because you all get the sub) and that has started people to re think the situation. If you read Harry Allen's book ( shown by @Kevtherev ) you'll find that there is nothing we know now that isn't in that book. However the economics of the situation in those days didn't make them concentrate on the most important factor in direct drilling, working with nature rather than fighting against it. We now realise that OM is the driver of yield and that all the beneficials that come with less soil disturbance are going to help. In the eighties they thought that stubble burning was the key, little did they realise that not only were they depleting the beneficials but they were also leaving a layer of carbon (ash) that effectively neutralised the graminicides they were using. Having depleted the beneficials the soil wasn't in a state that could cope when the stubble burning ban was enforced. Another nail in the dd coffin was when Monsanto reduced the price of glyphosate to way below Gramoxone. If you drilled into grass killed of with Gramoxone it was always successful however if you used Roundup it rarely worked. All the time the Gramoxone was as cheap and Roundup dear farmers always used the Gramoxone, as soon as the price changed they wanted to use Roundup and when it failed blamed the system. The solution was alluded to in Harry Allens book but it's taken nearly 50 years for us to start implementing systems to overcome the problems.
Of course Harry Allen didn't get it all right, if you look at his map of soils in the UK where dd is ( or isn't) possible you'll see that I'm very definitely in the impossible category however the last 17 years have proved that theory wrong. The major benefit we have nowadays is the internet and solutions to problems are now very easy to overcome by sharing information instantly rather than having to write a book about them.

 

[The_Swede]

Was very much in short trousers back in the early 80's.... I take it the relative high speed of kill (and so breakdown of residue) with Gramoxone is what made it more successful than Roundup back in the day?

 

[Kevtherev]

Also in the days of harry Allens book it was all relatively new then and it's come on in leaps and bounds since then in terms of machinery agrochemicals and also some varieties of crops are better nowadays

 

[SilliamWhale]

For me the internet has been the biggest help. You can get somebodies experience on something quite quickly.

 

[Drillman]

So just out of interest is there any farmers in the u.k. that started DDing in the 70s and never went back to min till or the plough?

 

[Old John]

burning was a useful tool every now and then,...........................but even brexit won't bring that back .

I'm not really sure it was that good; as the soil was pretty much dead. There was not much for the worms to live on, etc.
We used to bale most of our straw then, but left long stubbles. The ban on straw burning and our going out of cattle coincided, so we started chopping at that time too. I think we got on better than some of our "burning" neighbors because we had a nucleus of straw digesting bugs in the soil and the burners didn't.

 

[SilliamWhale]

So just out of interest is there any farmers in the u.k. that started DDing in the 70s and never went back to min till or the plough?

When we did the first no till day a few years back at Simon Cowells I was talking to this old boy who had done it for years since the 70's. I'd have said he wouldn't have been very computer orientated so wouldn't have been on this. Forgot his name.

I always thought it would be interesting to see why the farmers in Harry Allens book of case studies changed back because lots of them reported decent results. Personally I've been doing no till for 12 years and I can't really see any big reason to go back to tillage bar the odd bit of subsoiling

 

[SilliamWhale]

When we did the first no till day a few years back at Simon Cowells I was talking to this old boy who had done it for years since the 70's. I'd have said he wouldn't have been very computer orientated so wouldn't have been on this. Forgot his name.

I always thought it would be interesting to see why the farmers in Harry Allens book of case studies changed back because lots of them reported decent results. Personally I've been doing no till for 12 years and I can't really see any big reason to go back to tillage bar the odd bit of subsoiling

I've remembered his name now - Jim Bullock! (only joking Jim!)

 

[Timbo1080]

Father did a lot from the 70's until the burning ban. He then just disced as shallow as necessary to provide enough loose soil to cover the seed and chop up a bit of the stubble, (Apparently it's called "Scratch tillage" now) so that it didn't block up the tive tine drill. He never chopped anything other than the Rape straw & never liked the thought of dragging legs through too. Did used to subsoil where necessary.
Now, having seen the 750A, he constantly comments that, if he'd know about it in the 90's, he'd never have gone back to cultivating at all.
First year with the 750A though, so there's a long way to go, and a lot of learning on my part, before I can say that I have his confidence.
I wish people would stop remarking about second cereals in No-til.....I've been bricking it since autumn - Have second wheats and third Winter Barleys in!

 

[Shutesy]

I wish people would stop remarking about second cereals in No-til.....I've been bricking it since autumn - Have second wheats and third Winter Barleys in!

How do they look though?

 

[Feldspar]

How do they look though?

That's the thing, I am not worried about the plants quote so much once established. It's getting enough of then there in the beginning that's the biggest challenge for me.

 

[Tractor Boy]

Father did a lot from the 70's until the burning ban. He then just disced as shallow as necessary to provide enough loose soil to cover the seed and chop up a bit of the stubble, (Apparently it's called "Scratch tillage" now) so that it didn't block up the tive tine drill. He never chopped anything other than the Rape straw & never liked the thought of dragging legs through too. Did used to subsoil where necessary.
Now, having seen the 750A, he constantly comments that, if he'd know about it in the 90's, he'd never have gone back to cultivating at all.
First year with the 750A though, so there's a long way to go, and a lot of learning on my part, before I can say that I have his confidence.
I wish people would stop remarking about second cereals in No-til.....I've been bricking it since autumn - Have second wheats and third Winter Barleys in!

If you've got them established they will yield well. I've got horrendous establishment in places where there was too much chopped straw and chaff.

 

[mikep]

I was just wondering if any research has been done on optimum row widths with dd?
I seem to remember that other research showed that there was no loss of yield using tramlines and hence the loss of a couple of rows 'cos the plants beside them produced heavier due to the light penetrating deeper in the lines.
This would suggest that wider rows would not cause a yield penalty.

wide rows can often be used without penalty but you lose the weed suppresing effect of the closer rows. in blackgrass fields i think the narrower rows are a must at present.

 

[Timbo1080]

Winter Barley (Third cereal) is seriously hungry, but all bar one field is FULL of springs, so while we'd travel, I'd be pee'd off with the mess...

Second wheats look good so far, but I don't have any photos. First wheats are very pleasing, but they were after Linseed, so I'm not too surprised.

 

[Bury the Trash]

I'm not really sure it was that good; as the soil was pretty much dead. There was not much for the worms to live on, etc.
We used to bale most of our straw then, but left long stubbles. The ban on straw burning and our going out of cattle coincided, so we started chopping at that time too. I think we got on better than some of our "burning" neighbors because we had a nucleus of straw digesting bugs in the soil and the burners didn't.

similar as said in a post above - as part of a rotation which we have always had here, when used strategically it was / could be another tool in the box.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Another view i have is the fantastic success of Vaderstad and their Rapid. Its not really cut out for no till but its super at min till and they marketed it very well and the system suited a lot of farms. Lets be honest up until 1995 onwards not many drills were good enough for no till all the time and then they started developing better designs in the world and then in the UK from mid noughties. Vaderstad should make a good no till disc drill - would be popular.

Was listening to a podcast last night of a guy from the states who started no tilling in 1980 and it seemed quite clear they were hampered by poorer seeding equipment until the 750 came along - so we have more choice now

https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/topics/494 - see 55 years of no tillage

 

[yellow belly]

imho I agree with previous comment that burning straw/stubble reduced worms which are needed for long term notill was the fundamental reason for dd in the 80s to decline
ploughing was seen as the answer to the burning ban

in the trials second wheats have been shown to be the weakness of notill simple enough solution not to plant second wheats
not growing second wheat helps with bg reduction in any rotation

 

[Simon C]

When we did the first no till day a few years back at Simon Cowells I was talking to this old boy who had done it for years since the 70's. I'd have said he wouldn't have been very computer orientated so wouldn't have been on this. Forgot his name.

Pretty sure I know who you mean, good friend who farms about 12 to 15 hundred acres, three miles from here. Doesn't own a computer although he does have a mobile, but no-one except his tractor drivers have ever been given the number! His father started DD in the early seventies and he still has the original two 3 metre Bettinsons and two 3 metre Moore Uni-drills. When everyone else gave up round here because the surface started to get firm and compacted, with more and more water standing about, he had a contractor in with a para-plough, doing a bit every year. That went on for about ten years, but he then gave it up and hasn't done any deep work ever since.

His system now is to do very shallow scratching with an old vibroflex type spring tyne, but really, all he is after is creating a bit of loose soil for slot covering. Because he now has a bit of tilth, he uses a 6 metre wide Bettinson box drill with end tow for transport, I think it has disc coulters on the end of trailing arms.

He still drills direct into linseed and lucerne stubbles with the 3 metre Bettinsons and drills linseed with a Moore.

Lots of the locals laugh at him and think he is mad, but he couldn't care less and keeps himself to himself. He has a system that does what he wants to do and doesn't have any big tractors or expensive depreciating machinery.