Why the Hate for AD?

[sjt01]

Interesting and I dont know the full answer
it would appear from current estimates that Hinkley point C that the capital cost will be in the order of £7,000,000 per million ( 1GWh) unit of capacity
I know nothing of @sjt01 capital cost, but suspect it was a similar order
to compare it would need to be around the £1.2M
I have rounded these figures and very much hope I have not made a mistake of magnitude, if I have my apologies in advance

Our plant cost about £750,000, but has been much modified since. If it had been built to what I have evolved it to, it would have been cheaper in the first place!
Hinckley Point costs are still escalating, and I guess they will keep doing so as EDF have not yet got their French prototype working, and they have one in build in Finland started well before Hinckley. Wrong technology, it should be molten salt thorium reactors, which are inherently safe, so if things go wrong they just stop, and will consume waste. Blame Admiral Rickover, who wanted reactors for submarines, and outputs to make bombs.

 

[Deutzdx3]

Local group close by have 2 digesters, they run it well. Little to no mess, they take a lot of rotten apples from a lot of farms locally to feed it. Also chick muck when farms don’t want it because it’s to wet to tip. Decent bunch doing it right by looks of it. I get all my waste engine oil for our heaters from them. Helps them with getting rid of it all be it a small quantity to them and helps me. All I had to do was get a waste carriers licence so they have a paper trail for the oil.

 

[deleted user 436632456]

Some digestate is, yes. That stuff is expensive, even if free. You risk your land being condemned.

We REALLY need to change the lazy attitude to food waste.

The first action should always be to minimise it (Ref earlier post: how the hell did 27 tonnes of crisps become food waste? That's crazy! ).

Then we have to stop waste producers thinking it is ok to throw the wrapping (and cutlery, plates etc) into the food waste bin. It really shouldn't be difficult to avoid food waste contamination at source.

The crisps were out of date from a warehouse just.

If the general public was to get on board... contamination would cease overnight.

N.I has source segregated "Brown Bins" for the composting plants i.e. green and food waste mixed together collected by the council.
You can tell what area it's from when its tipped, the affluent areas are fantastic for having very low contamination levels but the less affluent areas are usually shocking!!
It makes a mock of the public who really try with their personal recycling.

 

[Exfarmer]

Our plant cost about £750,000, but has been much modified since. If it had been built to what I have evolved it to, it would have been cheaper in the first place!
Hinckley Point costs are still escalating, and I guess they will keep doing so as EDF have not yet got their French prototype working, and they have one in build in Finland started well before Hinckley. Wrong technology, it should be molten salt thorium reactors, which are inherently safe, so if things go wrong they just stop, and will consume waste. Blame Admiral Rickover, who wanted reactors for submarines, and outputs to make bombs.

I am certainly no expert on Nuclear power, but I understood molten salt reactors have huge issues of corrosion.

 

[SteveHants]

In terms of growing wholecrop to feed AD plants, the issue is that it is taking land out of food production, which is one of the biggest issues that agriculture will have to face - producing more food to feed a growing population from less land. This is the argument for "sustainable intensification".

 

[som farmer]

Some digestate is, yes. That stuff is expensive, even if free. You risk your land being condemned.

We REALLY need to change the lazy attitude to food waste.

The first action should always be to minimise it (Ref earlier post: how the hell did 27 tonnes of crisps become food waste? That's crazy! ).

Then we have to stop waste producers thinking it is ok to throw the wrapping (and cutlery, plates etc) into the food waste bin. It really shouldn't be difficult to avoid food waste contamination at source.

you would have thought, that after swill feeding was stopped, that free pick-up, to a removal cost, might have made them think, obviously not.

 

[thesilentone]

The first few searches I tried came up with this:

https://feedbackglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Styles-et-al-2020-Identifying-the-Sustainable-Niche-for-Anaerobic-Digestion-in-a-Low-Carbon-Future.pdf

View attachment 918450

Life Cycle Environmental Impacts of Electricity from Biogas Produced by Anaerobic Digestion

The aim of this study was to evaluate life cycle environmental impacts associated with the generation of electricity from biogas produced by the anaerobic digestion (AD) of agricultural products and waste. Five real plants in Italy were considered, using maize silage, slurry, and tomato waste as...

www.frontiersin.org

View attachment 918451

Interesting, however what is the comparison to ?

Energy production is required for several uses, primarily electricity, but also heat and transport. In addition, base load is required for when the wind does not blow and the sun is not shining. So, unless their is a comparison to all other means of energy production, and then broken down by category (elec, heat, transport) we are only looking at a micro part of the various models.

As you are probably aware, the political engine driving renewable's are. 1) EU Landfill diversion targets. 2) EU CO2 reduction targets. 3) UK commitments to the Kyoto agreement on energy produced from renewable sources

Many of the areas used in your reference show what can happen when you cut corners on cost. The principle one being storing digestate in open tanks (or lagoons). When ambient temperature is sufficiently high N is lost to atmosphere. However this is no different to on-farm storage of slurries and manures, the same thing happens, yet we sit on our hands.

The second being only electrical production, from maize. The worst case scenario in a CO2 mitigation argument for AD, it would only require a very small ammount of heat usage to off-set this, or a small ammount of waste input as part of the feed-stock.

As it is, the assessment is now outdated as the Sustainability Criteria answers these issues.

There is allot to do if we are to meet expectations, and we are behind the game. The Germans have in areas, several plants pumping Biogas to one grid connection point, as well as pumping slurries via local networks to plants. ARLA has been proactive in the UK and abroad taking a holistic approach to farm waste, milk processing and CO2 mitigation.

Interesting days ahead.

 

[Winch Farming]

Ad is ace. Keep it up.

Totally agree. "Baseload power" supporting further deployment of intermittent solar and wind generation. On the food waste lets not forget the landfill and carbon savings. More please...

 

[sjt01]

Many of the areas used in your reference show what can happen when you cut corners on cost. The principle one being storing digestate in open tanks (or lagoons). When ambient temperature is sufficiently high N is lost to atmosphere. However this is no different to on-farm storage of slurries and manures, the same thing happens, yet we sit on our hands.

Not all of us are sitting on our hands, I am in the process of commissioning a digestate treatment system to reduce the pH and almost eliminate ammonia emissions in our digestate. I know we have been losing about 25% of the ammonia before it gets to the lagoon, compared to that the losses from an uncovered lagoon are negligible.

 

[thesilentone]

Not all of us are sitting on our hands, I am in the process of commissioning a digestate treatment system to reduce the pH and almost eliminate ammonia emissions in our digestate. I know we have been losing about 25% of the ammonia before it gets to the lagoon, compared to that the losses from an uncovered lagoon are negligible.

The issue is how slow we are as a Country to recognise this as a problem in general. In the UK we have no legislation to ensure we cover on-farm slurry lagoons or tanks, or even put a straw plug in old tanks. Why not ?

In addition, it is clear you are doing a job with you're plant and biodegrading feed-stocks well, this as you know reduces the further risks of secondary digestion and emissions.

 

[Exfarmer]

The issue is how slow we are as a Country to recognise this as a problem in general. In the UK we have no legislation to ensure we cover on-farm slurry lagoons or tanks, or even put a straw plug in old tanks. Why not ?

In addition, it is clear you are doing a job with you're plant and biodegrading feed-stocks well, this as you know reduces the further risks of secondary digestion and emissions.

The trouble is that few of the AD plants are run by enthusiastic and deeply knowledgable farmers. Most once built are sold on to hedge funds etc who will only be interested in the bottom line and it is extremely unlikely that any have a clue what goes on in these tanks they own

 

[thesilentone]

The trouble is that few of the AD plants are run by enthusiastic and deeply knowledgable farmers. Most once built are sold on to hedge funds etc who will only be interested in the bottom line and it is extremely unlikely that any have a clue what goes on in these tanks they own

I would agree, several of the large funders are in control of many of the UK plants, however that is the same everywhere, Very few had the millions needed and went to the banks, this was after the crash, the banks turned their backs on them.

A funders paradise, they had free run to make extra profits by charging extra for the risk, plus take advantage of the various tax incentives. But, hey-ho, that's the way the game works.

Fear not, there is a tremendous ammount of due diligence carried out by funders prior to releasing capital for these projects. Both commercial and technical.

 

[graham99]

No resentment of AD here.

However I’m far enough away from any so I’m being careful not to fall into the NIMBY trap, but many who do live beside them resent the smell, the constant traffic, being driven off tiny roads by poorly piloted tractors and land being overdosed with many very heavy applications of waste - often full of undesirable things like plastic particles.

That’s before we have even touched upon the more local and quite personal effects on smaller farms of losing 15 - 100 acre blocks of rented land, until they amalgamate into a 1500 - 2000 acre farm with those blocks scattered over a 20+ mile radius from its base.
The constant traffic and drawing of said materials in, and out certainly does seem to detract somewhat from the ‘Green Credentials’ of the whole affair.

Meanwhile the old long established family livestock farms, farmed by people who’s grandparents have been born, lived, worked and died on the same land that is now farmed as part of this venture cannot compete with the money that has pushed them out.

Nor do they carry enough clout to seek help for reinvestment from the bank, let alone access to proper investment avenues like a AD plant has..

However, as you say. It’s a free market.

the main reason for ads plants is to lift land prices

 

[som farmer]

the main reason for ads plants is to lift land prices

you don't need AD round here to raise prices, 1 self made billionaire, spending like our treasury, a rich german 'princess' and a successful business man, selling his assets, to buy land. The base price, is £14,500 ac, for good, bad or indifferent.

 

[teslacoils]

you don't need AD round here to raise prices, 1 self made billionaire, spending like our treasury, a rich german 'princess' and a successful business man, selling his assets, to buy land. The base price, is £14,500 ac, for good, bad or indifferent.

Send them up here. I'll do them a deal.

 

[som farmer]

Send them up here. I'll do them a deal.

it's all well and good, but it's shite for farmers, looking to expand, we have an option to purchase in the next few years, but at that value ? It will make for some interesting talks.

 

[DRC]

Silver fox,
Would you mind sharing some of you’re experience of growing rye?
Comparing rye to maize, what would the yield t/ha be,
And also the energy content of the rye to maize?
Growing costs difference?
Tia
Elj

Only just seen this. Will have a look at the figures and get back to you .

 

[whitefox]

Only just seen this. Will have a look at the figures and get back to you .

Whatever your figures are for rye, it doesn't support £200 an acre rents

 

[som farmer]

we grow hybrid rye, followed by maize, not for a AD plant, but for bulk silage,
Our contractor does grow the same, for AD. Rye is pretty low imput, seed £700 ton, weedkiller, and fert, mowed and picked up by forager. Maize does cost more, obviously. On the basis of yield, our rye came off at 18 ton/ac, contractors figures, not mine, maize put in after rye, there is a balance, timing/weather, again contractors figure, maize came of about 15 ton +. He gets £30 ton for rye, and £40 maize, and free digestate. The hybrid rye has been developed, for digesters, as a catch crop, between maize.

 

[maen]

In most areas of the south west it is dairy farmers that are forcing up rents. Even beef farmers are paying over £200 acre for land and buildings. What happens next year and beyond will be interesting.