Wide cereal rows

[farmerfred86]

Im sure there was something in some Hutchinson or Agrovista bumph about this recently.
From experience I don’t think it matters but in the case of autumn sown crops, creating a stale seed bed then sowing really wide rows will probably be bad for blackgrass, if you are zero tilling and not disturbing soil it shouldn’t be such a problem.
The plants seem to have bigger ears but less of them
I also think it is variety dependant also for wheat.
spring oats and barley don’t seem to mind a wider row but spring wheat does.
the problem we have is all these things are looked at in isolation and not as part of a whole farming system.
A trial may say tight row spacing out yielded wide row spacing, but then you find out it was late drilled wheat after sugar beet.
You might get it the other way around, but it was direct drilled on 10th September.
I was speaking to someone yesterday who has travelled all around farms all over the world doing a Nuffield. Talking about variable seed rate. The Americans had been there and done it, reckoned it was pointless. Get enough plants and Mother Nature regulates itself either by thinning down/putting bigger ears etc etc (within reason using sensible seed rates)

Thats why I stopped buggering about with variable rate!

 

[Devil's advocate]

Correct. Lots of interesting things can be done inter row. Both our drills work at 250mm now.

Mr Cool.

Combine that with the hands free Ha

 

[Banana Bar]

Thats why I stopped buggering about with variable rate!

VR seed is the most frustrating bit of Precision Ag I have ever used. It must be 8 yrs since I first tried using it. Far too much faffing when you need to be getting on. Just chuck enough seed down the spout and be done with it.



P.s. I’m trying again

 

[Warnesworth]

Slightly off topic.
I gather zero till (very little soil disturbance) is meant to be beneficial in helping control Blackgrass, but I always wonder whether the wider row spacing associated with zero till (due to the need for trash flow) tend to negate the effect that zero till has on reducing Blackgrass .

No it doesn’t. The black grass seed is left on the surface where it doesn’t want to be if properly no till. Then covered with trash or cover. Kept in dark. No light. No cultivation. No movement. No germination. Works every time. Therefore wider rows. Less disturbance. Less germination.

There are some fields near me which have been left fallow this year and sprayed regularly, I suspect to take out successive black grass germinations. The hard work had been done to my mind, no income for a year and quite a bit of cost, until.... it was cultivated a couple of weeks ago. It’s now turned green with emerging black grass.

 

[FarmerBruce]

Correct. Lots of interesting things can be done inter row. Both our drills work at 250mm now.

Don’t you bother with the weeds that grow in the row

 

[ajd132]

Don’t you bother with the weeds that grow in the row

If you don’t move the soil you don’t tend to get as many. I would drill on wide rows if I was cultivating.

 

[ajd132]

No it doesn’t. The black grass seed is left on the surface where it doesn’t want to be if properly no till. Then covered with trash or cover. Kept in dark. No light. No cultivation. No movement. No germination. Works every time. Therefore wider rows. Less disturbance. Less germination.

There are some fields near me which have been left fallow this year and sprayed regularly, I suspect to take out successive black grass germinations. The hard work had been done to my mind, no income for a year and quite a bit of cost, until.... it was cultivated a couple of weeks ago. It’s now turned green with emerging black grass.

What about rolling? Will probably need to roll after a tine drill at 250mm will this flush blackgrass?

 

[Devil's advocate]

Don’t you bother with the weeds that grow in the row

Easier to rogue, a field that has wide rows. A right pain pulling ryegrass/wild oats, brome etc in narrow rows

 

[Warnesworth]

What about rolling? Will probably need to roll after a tine drill at 250mm will this flush blackgrass?

It might flush a bit but I never find it to be a problem.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Err, if “drilling” in wide rows, there should be no reason to roll the field or the inter row areas, if you have a decent planter with press wheels on each row assembly.
No reason whatsoever to roll anything but the plant row is there ?

 

[Farmer Roy]

As said above, it is the disturbance of cultivation or the shallow burial of seeds that really get all the weeds growing

 

[Grass And Grain]

Err, if “drilling” in wide rows, there should be no reason to roll the field or the inter row areas, if you have a decent planter with press wheels on each row assembly.
No reason whatsoever to roll anything but the plant row is there ?

In the UK drilling conditions are regularly not perfect, and the soil is quite often too wet to have a press wheel running on the back of a drill. You also sometimes need a bit of luck to get it rolled (cambridge rollers as a separate operation).

 

[Farmer Roy]

Conditions here are regularly not perfect either

up to 12 or more metres of clay topsoil & retaining all straw, can make a damp winter planting very challenging . . .

there are many styles & options of press wheels, for different conditions. Some work better for dry / limited moisture conditions, some are better in wet conditions. Obviously, discs create less disturbance than tynes, so also bring up less mud / press wheel problems than tynes. However, in wet conditions, wide low pressure presswheel tyres, or the open steel coil type ( ones that can flex & shed mud ) are generally better than hard narrow ones. Ultimately, if it’s too wet for press wheels, it’s too wet to be planting . . .

Ryan NT (Formerly RFM NT) Coil Closing Wheel for planters | Paul Ryan

The coil closing wheel evolved from Ryan NT (Formerly RFM NT)'s focus on the coil press wheels for seed drills and planters. Farm Machinery.

www.rfmnt.com

 

[ajd132]

Conditions here are regularly not perfect either

up to 12 or more metres of clay topsoil & retaining all straw, can make a damp winter planting very challenging . . .

there are many styles & options of press wheels, for different conditions. Some work better for dry / limited moisture conditions, some are better in wet conditions. Obviously, discs create less disturbance than tynes, so also bring up less mud / press wheel problems than tynes. However, in wet conditions, wide low pressure presswheel tyres, or the open steel coil type ( ones that can flex & shed mud ) are generally better than hard narrow ones. Ultimately, if it’s too wet for press wheels, it’s too wet to be planting . . .

Ryan NT (Formerly RFM NT) Coil Closing Wheel for planters | Paul Ryan

The coil closing wheel evolved from Ryan NT (Formerly RFM NT)'s focus on the coil press wheels for seed drills and planters. Farm Machinery.

www.rfmnt.com

It’s mainly to try and beat the slugs in really high residue situations on clay soils. But I take your point.

 

[ajd132]

Conditions here are regularly not perfect either

up to 12 or more metres of clay topsoil & retaining all straw, can make a damp winter planting very challenging . . .

there are many styles & options of press wheels, for different conditions. Some work better for dry / limited moisture conditions, some are better in wet conditions. Obviously, discs create less disturbance than tynes, so also bring up less mud / press wheel problems than tynes. However, in wet conditions, wide low pressure presswheel tyres, or the open steel coil type ( ones that can flex & shed mud ) are generally better than hard narrow ones. Ultimately, if it’s too wet for press wheels, it’s too wet to be planting . . .

Ryan NT (Formerly RFM NT) Coil Closing Wheel for planters | Paul Ryan

The coil closing wheel evolved from Ryan NT (Formerly RFM NT)'s focus on the coil press wheels for seed drills and planters. Farm Machinery.

www.rfmnt.com

It’s mainly to try and beat the slugs in really high residue situations on clay soils. But I take your point.

 

[Farmer Roy]

We don’t really have slug problems

although we can have very damp & high residue conditions in our autumn / winter plantings

I don’t know if it’s because we also have lots of beneficials / predators / birds / ants etc that may keep slugs in check, or if we just don’t get them ? ? ?

we DO have slugs here, along with snails, but they only seem to be a problem in home veggie gardens, than broad acre cropping . . .

Mice tend to be a bigger problem in high residue / zero till conditions - some areas are being hammered this year

 

[cvx175]

In the UK drilling conditions are regularly not perfect, and the soil is quite often too wet to have a press wheel running on the back of a drill. You also sometimes need a bit of luck to get it rolled (cambridge rollers as a separate operation).

If you think it will be a problem it would be easy enough to modify/make a roller that is also on wide spacing

 

[shelly reynolds]

Well spring barley drilled with the Claydon is yielding over a tonne a ha less than that drilled by the vaderstad, this is from combining today, and the main reason being that the wider row spacing a have allowed the barley to bracelets over far worse and so many heads are on the floor, but deffo worse in the Claydon drilled bits.

Yep just about to say exactly the same, similar in late wheat to

 

[Devil's advocate]

With a suitable hoe for blackgrass in 10 inch rows or better still band sprayer

Mazzorotti (recenctly bought out by John Deere) do a 70 hp tool carrier with cab & have fitted a cereal drill in the mid mount poition.

 

[Warnesworth]

Err, if “drilling” in wide rows, there should be no reason to roll the field or the inter row areas, if you have a decent planter with press wheels on each row assembly.
No reason whatsoever to roll anything but the plant row is there ?

I find consolidation behind the drill to be less than perfect no matter what drill is used. Also consolidation is very definitely necessary for slug, and probably flea beetle, management too. While I recognise the point you are making, I still feel rolling, in UK conditions, is important.