Wilding

[Northern territory]

I’d like to wager far more have survived because of better nutrition than had severe birth defects. The figures can be scewed to fit the rhetoric.

 

[martian]

No you haven't got it all wrong! You mob graze your farm with a lot of humans for 2 days each year and they use more extensive humanity all year round to pay the bills.. Nothing but respect if that opportunity is open to a landowner as it is personal choice but spare a thought for the tenant who are "humanoid stockless" because rules is rules!!

I'm sorry if I'm being a bit thick here, but I've no idea what you mean

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

I'm sorry if I'm being a bit thick here, but I've no idea what you mean

Definitely being thick

 

[martian]

Definitely being thick

Thanks...can you explain then please?

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Thanks...can you explain then please?

Actually I have him on ignore for obvious reasons.

 

[Huno]

Actually I have him on ignore for obvious reasons.

I have you on ignore all the time too.. dont worry about it ... no point in a debate on this forum

 

[Huno]

I'm sorry if I'm being a bit thick here, but I've no idea what you mean

Sorry.. letting the general public onto your farm can be quite profitable compared to farming regardless of the method.. tenant can't do it as easily

 

[Huno]

Definitely being thick

Pardon mush?

 

[egbert]

Interesting that you think this is about you and your farm. It certainly made me think differently about mine when I read it.

What?
WTF are you talking about?

I've commented, often, about my feelings about Lady Knepp telling everyone how clever she is, and how she's doing X and Y.
I've made it clear how I don't care how she -or you- farm your own land, other than that she - and her fellow travellers- have influenced a cadre of people.
They range from putting a quid in the Woodland w4nker Trusts tin, to being full blown rewilders, saying vile things about me and mine.
They've built a head of steam, pretending that by trying to recover some lost bio-diversity in industrialised rich densely populated countries, they can reset the clock somehow.
It's crept into policy, and is now directly impacting my neighbours and I.
I'm happy for you if you don't have these brassstuds beating at your door, telling you that everything you're doing is damaging, and that you have to abandon your centuries old culture of extensive hill pastoralism.

For me, it is about me and my farm.
Because the fallout from what she and her ilk have selfishly spouted has landed at my door.
I couldn't wish them any greater ill.
The only thing stopping some of us from acting on base impulse is frankly the prospect of the gaol time.

 

[Inky]

So agrochemical’s are responsible for significant birth defects and cancer, based on a notional feeling.
I have to say if you look closer to home to agrochemical users, ie direct close contact with concentrated formulations and similar with dilute solution as applied, they should exhibit these cancers and birth defects to a far greater magnitude than the population at large?

You would think like asbestos those closest would be the most impacted, but each humans genomes is unique in it's own way to how it is affected. If ingestion is the method through food and water then that's everyone affected.

I went to the war museum in Ho Chi Minh (Vietnam) where they have very graphic photo's of the effects chemicals can have on humans and do still today in their populations, they call them the "unfortunate ones".

Monsanto created "Agent Orange" and while i'm not comparing it to modern ag chemicals it was created to destroy vegetation and does the same thing as round-up although chemically different. You'd like to think they didn't know of the unintended consequences of their product, is it so hard to conceive that there are unintended consequences to our use of modern chemicals?

 

[crashbox]

Knepp is how we farmed or my father farmed in the 60’s and 70’s BEFORE the advent of what is considered ‘modern’ farming, ie massive and then indiscriminate use of chemicals and almost complete destruction/eradication of the wild-life. Including insect predators.
Stubble burning was one of the nastiest, latest way to kill everything in its path plus all those chems folk now know cause truly horrible birth defects but were then considered crop saviours!
Todays agriculture is just starting to come out of the trees with a more considered approach and understanding, finally realising after 60 years that killing everything is not really the way forward.
Simplistic but true.
I was blown away by the book as it ran true to our thoughts and exactly what we have achieved on our tiny piece of cut-up carpet here in EA.
SS

The Knepp meat yield is 21 kilos (live weight) per acre, which is far lower than even the 60s/70s yields, and organic/sustainable farming yields.

No issue with Knepp, in fact applaud them for doing something different, which is hugely beneficial for the environment.

But I cannot see that it is a core commercial agricultural business.

It is held up as an example by some environmentalists, but I suspect that if most of us attempted their business model, we'd be broke pretty quickly.

Am I wrong?

 

[martian]

You are right, but I don't think that they'd pretend otherwise. The thing to remember is that it is a dynamic ecosystem, in much the same way that our soils are on our farms...they'll improve or get worse depending on how they are managed, much as Knepp will evolve as the animal/plant/soil axis changes. Quite possibly it'll be an incredibly productive livestock farm in the future, heaving with wildlife as well. Farming won't always look like it does now, so there's a lot to be said for just enjoying watching this landscape experiment...

 

[martian]

As it happens, they are building up a regen farm next to the wilding project, see here:

Regenerative Farm moves into its next phase alongside Knepp's Rewilding - Knepp

After 2 years of development, Knepp’s regenerative farm is undergoing a restructure that will see Russ Carrington step back from his role as project manager. This change follows the successful establishment of several new enterprises that now require dedicated management and input as they grow...

knepp.co.uk

 

[Northern territory]

As it happens, they are building up a regen farm next to the wilding project, see here:

Regenerative Farm moves into its next phase alongside Knepp's Rewilding - Knepp

After 2 years of development, Knepp’s regenerative farm is undergoing a restructure that will see Russ Carrington step back from his role as project manager. This change follows the successful establishment of several new enterprises that now require dedicated management and input as they grow...

knepp.co.uk

What I really want to know is facts and figures for all this stuff. Same as the magazines, you get all the glossy stuff but never any proper accounts based facts.

 

[Fenwick]

love they somebody doing something different successfully is always accused of telling everyone else to do the same thing.

Sounds fair enough, but when you start selling books and doing talks it's more of an ascertainment than an accusation.

What's a lot?

Percentage of t/o would be a better guide.

I think this is important. As @Clive said we should be getting away from subsidies.

Perhaps subsidies should be limited to a proportion of income. If you earn more from subsidies than from farming, in my personal opinion, you are not a farmer. Whether you are rewilding, organic, hill farming or super a industrialised broiler unit.

My 30% of my total income is from various governement subsidies. I am not very comfortable with that.

The Knepp meat yield is 21 kilos (live weight) per acre, which is far lower than even the 60s/70s yields, and organic/sustainable farming yields.

About seven times less than we produce on our farm (100% grass, organic etc)


I have such mixed feelings about rewilding.

On one side it's great. The boon to wildlife and biodiversity is evident. I think that's ace! I'd love my farm to look like that. Who would wan't to spend their day wandering around checking out the wildlife, taking time out to write a book or two, all paid for by tax payer. Sounds great.

But the problem never was how can we help wildlife and biodiversity.
The problem was how can we help wildlife and diversity while still producing food and fiber, (especially on a little island so heavily dépendant on food import as the UK). While still making a decent living from it.

Something this project is clearly failing at.

I just like to think we can do better!

 

[crashbox]

The problem was how can we help wildlife and diversity while still producing food and fiber, (especially on a little island so heavily dépendant on food import as the UK).

And make a sensible living from it!

 

[Fenwick]

And make a sensible living from it!

Yes of course! I'll edit my post!

 

[Lucy 7]

I think it is still going, but there have been major issues with allowing animals to starve to control their numbers. The Oostvaardersplassen Project set out to be VERY low interventionist and stand back and watch. At Knepp they have been a little more pragmatic, they know the English public will not tolerate starving animals, so they cull excess numbers and sell the meat for good money.

What has happened with Exmoor ponies at Knepp is interesting, they were culling excess stock, but the carcass had next to no value. So they have now gelded the males and the herd structure has completely fallen apart and they graze differently.

Apparently Exmoor ponies are the nearest thing we have to a wild horse and their numbers are dangerously low. There is some woman somewhere doing good work conserving them and marketing their meat as part of the process. However, unfortunately she is having major issues and death threats from Vegans.

I'm no expert on this matter, all I've done is read this book over Christmas, sometimes with a glass of red in my hand!

Thanks, I missed that. Luckily.
I posted this under Holistic not only because the subject is deeply holistic, but also to avoid too much of the politics of envy stuff. It's interesting though to consider what benefits the taxpayer gets from the environmental subsidies that help pay for the enterprise. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't cost neutral for all sorts of reasons that are hard to put a monetary value on, as well as those which are easily costed; like provision of clean water. But I think for the nations sanity, we need more wild places in our small, over-crowded island. And these wild places can teach us farmers a lot. As Dwayne Beck always says, you need to know what your land would be doing if you weren't farming it. Nature does a surprisingly good job, we can pick up a few tips.

Fell ponies are great conservation grazers aswell I think they should of left the wild herds alone.
Whose to say . nature sorts itself out although some vegans don't think they are allowed (ironically and know better than nature itself -by forcing carnivorous or taking advantage of omnvoris that still require meat putting there human ideals on animals
I've known of vegan dogs that have died from this cruel behaviour and experienced it with some trying to force cats to be
Rejecting them as a species If they are not bowing to there fascism
Such compassion for animals ?n and acceptance of there nature and nature itself ?!