Will they get the job done

[Highland Mule]

Anyone going abroad without third party travel insurance is nuts- E111 does not cover repatriation or any dental issue for starters. The cost of a chartered medical return flight, for example, will not be met by any E111 and the level of medical treatment/facilities available in many countries might open the eyes of many folk. It is true that travel insurance typically does not cover treatment in a private medical setting BUT it will usually cover you if it is a case of genuine emergency, with E111 you don't even have the option, and in many parts of Europe, state operated healthcare centres are few and far between.

Furthermore, the existing commitments that the UK has due to EU membership are extremely problematic. Do you honestly expect the UK to ever recover the costs of say, a cardiac MRI and then angioplasty or heart valve replacement for a 50 year old Lithuanian man who has been obese and drank heavily all his life yet only been in the UK 2 years? The UK is bound by law to attempt to offer treatment to this gentleman at great expense but in honesty will never ever manage to recover the cost of doing so from his home country.

The UK's membership of the EU forces it to adopt policies that are simply unworkable.

The UK doesn’t try - it’s like an agri contractor without an invoice book. The third countries will pay if asked - they do when France, or Germany does, but yet we don’t bother trying. Don’t blame the NHS’s ineptitude on the EU. And the costs of an angioplasty would be trivial to another country, even a relatively poor one like Lithuania.

And as for a lack of NHS cover for toothache when I’m in France - I’ll take my chances thanks, especially given I don’t get that in England anyway, last time I looked. Ryanair fly around Europe all the time so I’d probably be quicker and cheaper to get myself home to my own private dentist anyway...

That said, I do take out an annual policy because for me it’s a trivial cost - not so for others.

 

[le bon paysan]

Anyone going abroad without third party travel insurance is nuts- E111 does not cover repatriation or any dental issue for starters. The cost of a chartered medical return flight, for example, will not be met by any E111 and the level of medical treatment/facilities available in many countries might open the eyes of many folk. It is true that travel insurance typically does not cover treatment in a private medical setting BUT it will usually cover you if it is a case of genuine emergency, with E111 you don't even have the option, and in many parts of Europe, state operated healthcare centres are few and far between.

Furthermore, the existing commitments that the UK has due to EU membership are extremely problematic. Do you honestly expect the UK to ever recover the costs of say, a cardiac MRI and then angioplasty or heart valve replacement for a 50 year old Lithuanian man who has been obese and drank heavily all his life yet only been in the UK 2 years? The UK is bound by law to attempt to offer treatment to this gentleman at great expense but in honesty will never ever manage to recover the cost of doing so from his home country.

The UK's membership of the EU forces it to adopt policies that are simply unworkable.

You are quite correct about the need for travel insurance on top of the cover that the E111 gives.
In your scenario , the man is a 50 year old who is now resident. Hes probably working .There are many Brits in Europe , working , who get their medical needs covered by the state they are in. Me being one. 2 hip replacement operations.

 

[ollie989898]

The UK doesn’t try - it’s like an agri contractor without an invoice book. The third countries will pay if asked - they do when France, or Germany does, but yet we don’t bother trying. Don’t blame the NHS’s ineptitude on the EU. And the costs of an angioplasty would be trivial to another country, even a relatively poor one like Lithuania.

The NHS is simply not geared up for it. It's not an immigration service either: anyone who arrives in their doors is treated. They argue they don't have the time or resources to mess with the issue and would rather deal with people's medical needs. Whilst the NHS is not a single homogeneous entity but it is composed of some fairly monolithic organisations who aren't for changing anything much and some are rather better than others.

I know not the answer but I do not see why your granny should wait 6 months for a hip of yet a man who came to the UK to work should get complex heart surgery for free within weeks of arrival.

 

[ollie989898]

You are quite correct about the need for travel insurance on top of the cover that the E111 gives.
In your scenario , the man is a 50 year old who is now resident. Hes probably working .There are many Brits in Europe , working , who get their medical needs covered by the state they are in. Me being one. 2 hip replacement operations.

That dog isn't going to hunt any longer.

 

[le bon paysan]

The NHS is simply not geared up for it. It's not an immigration service either: anyone who arrives in their doors is treated. They argue they don't have the time or resources to mess with the issue and would rather deal with people's medical needs. Whilst the NHS is not a single homogeneous entity but it is composed of some fairly monolithic organisations who aren't for changing anything much and some are rather better than others.

I know not the answer but I do not see why your granny should wait 6 months for a hip of yet a man who came to the UK to work should get complex heart surgery for free within weeks of arrival.

Why would it be so difficult to be obliged to produce your NI number in the hospital. Anyone who can't gets billed, its not rocket science.
Granny shouldn't have to wait at all, its NHS ineptitude. 6 weeks waiting here for a new hip, that's ordered for the patient and the case you made said the man was here 2 years.

 

[le bon paysan]

That dog isn't going to hunt any longer.

I've no idea what you mean?

 

[Hindsight]

Why would it be so difficult to be obliged to produce your NI number in the hospital. Anyone who can't gets billed, its not rocket science.
Granny shouldn't have to wait at all, its NHS ineptitude. 6 weeks waiting here for a new hip, that's ordered for the patient and the case you made said the man was here 2 years.

Eventually UK will have to introduce an identity card loaded with data. I do find it a tad ironic arch Leaver David Davis fought against this, even forcing a by election over the issue back in the day. When an ID system would solve so many issues. Hey ho.

 

[Highland Mule]

The NHS is simply not geared up for it. It's not an immigration service either: anyone who arrives in their doors is treated. They argue they don't have the time or resources to mess with the issue and would rather deal with people's medical needs. Whilst the NHS is not a single homogeneous entity but it is composed of some fairly monolithic organisations who aren't for changing anything much and some are rather better than others.

I know not the answer but I do not see why your granny should wait 6 months for a hip of yet a man who came to the UK to work should get complex heart surgery for free within weeks of arrival.

Ask yourself why. Because they haven’t been told to invoice. It’s not difficult to determine nationality/ payment responsibility and bill onwards and the admin costs would be covered easily, if it’s as big an issue as you suggest.

Of course it’s always easier to blame the EU, and file it in the “too difficult for now” pile....

 

[wanton dwarf]

Why would it be so difficult to be obliged to produce your NI number in the hospital. Anyone who can't gets billed, its not rocket science.
Granny shouldn't have to wait at all, its NHS ineptitude. 6 weeks waiting here for a new hip, that's ordered for the patient and the case you made said the man was here 2 years.

NI numbers are given out by the state and can be bought/sold.

IMHO anyone that comes to the UK should automatically be forced to pay for medical care via a tax like an airport tax.

For long term residents there should be a direct link between years of payments and entitlement to NHS service. Whilst I lived in Belgium you couldn't use a library unless you had paid Belgian taxes for 5 years AND signed on for Belgian nationality giving proof of employment and proved the ability to live without benefits.

 

[le bon paysan]

Eventually UK will have to introduce an identity card loaded with data. I do find it a tad ironic arch Leaver David Davis fought against this, even forcing a by election over the issue back in the day. When an ID system would solve so many issues. Hey ho.

I've got a card with my NI number on it. Produce that or copy it onto a smartphone.
Its honestly laughable that they cant do an invoice.

 

[le bon paysan]

NI numbers are given out by the state and can be bought/sold.

IMHO anyone that comes to the UK should automatically be forced to pay for medical care via a tax like an airport tax.

For long term residents there should be a direct link between years of payments and entitlement to NHS service. Whilst I lived in Belgium you couldn't use a library unless you had paid Belgian taxes for 5 years AND signed on for Belgian nationality giving proof of employment and proved the ability to live without benefits.

Its why the asylum seekers don't stop in France , no paying in, Avis d import, you can't get a carte Vitale.

 

[Hindsight]

I've got a card with my NI number on it. Produce that or copy it onto a smartphone.
Its honestly laughable that they cant do an invoice.

It is but that is the result of the NHS football for 70 years. A collegiate government would agree for a system to allow easy, cheap charging. But it the Tories suggested anything along those line Labour would be straight onto the NHS being privatised. And likewise Labour cannot countenance any such charging system to their election trump card - the NHS. Truly pathetic - goodness we need collegiate government - and as such true proportional representation is the only route to some common sense.

 

[ollie989898]

Why would it be so difficult to be obliged to produce your NI number in the hospital. Anyone who can't gets billed, its not rocket science.
Granny shouldn't have to wait at all, its NHS ineptitude. 6 weeks waiting here for a new hip, that's ordered for the patient and the case you made said the man was here 2 years.

Dude, have you seen the state some people arrive in hospital in? I've seen people in barely a shred of clothing turn up. The NHS will claim, possibly legitimately, possibly not, that they don't have time to work out if someone is eligible for treatment.

Anyway, as to the details, they are only fictional examples.

The NHS trusts are huge organisations, how you steer any of them in another direction I cannot tell you.

 

[ollie989898]

I've got a card with my NI number on it. Produce that or copy it onto a smartphone.
Its honestly laughable that they cant do an invoice.

NI numbers are not proof of citizenship or identity, I believe fraud of these kinds of documents is widespread. Of course, the UK does not have identity cards- they were shot down because of fears of big brother....

 

[ollie989898]

NI numbers are given out by the state and can be bought/sold.

IMHO anyone that comes to the UK should automatically be forced to pay for medical care via a tax like an airport tax.

For long term residents there should be a direct link between years of payments and entitlement to NHS service. Whilst I lived in Belgium you couldn't use a library unless you had paid Belgian taxes for 5 years AND signed on for Belgian nationality giving proof of employment and proved the ability to live without benefits.

And yet the NHS will treat anyone who walks off a plane right this second.

You try the same thing in America or elsewhere.

 

[ollie989898]

Ask yourself why. Because they haven’t been told to invoice. It’s not difficult to determine nationality/ payment responsibility and bill onwards and the admin costs would be covered easily, if it’s as big an issue as you suggest.

Of course it’s always easier to blame the EU, and file it in the “too difficult for now” pile....

I don't want to argue, but I have seen people arrive in hospital in barely any clothing, some don't speak much English, if any. Others are so high off their faces they might as well be from Mars.

Picture the headlines- man dies in hospital car park as NHS staff try to determine if he is eligible for treatment?

You call and ambulance in the USA and they will be wanting to know who is paying the second you are wheeled through the doors. I'm not here justifying or defend UK healthcare protocols: only explain what I know can and does happen.

Someone coming to the UK as an economic migrant currently enjoys a lot of rights and protections that would not be applied to a UK national abroad.

 

[ollie989898]

Why would it be so difficult to be obliged to produce your NI number in the hospital. Anyone who can't gets billed, its not rocket science.
Granny shouldn't have to wait at all, its NHS ineptitude. 6 weeks waiting here for a new hip, that's ordered for the patient and the case you made said the man was here 2 years.

These are only fictional examples. I've actually met patients who have waited 24 months for a knee replacement but I cannot say why that period of time elapsed, it could be due to a medical reason.

As for a man being in the UK 2 years, I don't believe the length of stay has any bearing on someone's eligibility for treatment. I wanted to illustrate the present circumstances and believe that some kind of change is nearly inevitable.

 

[ollie989898]

Eventually UK will have to introduce an identity card loaded with data. I do find it a tad ironic arch Leaver David Davis fought against this, even forcing a by election over the issue back in the day. When an ID system would solve so many issues. Hey ho.

What you say is true but you will have an uphill battle getting identify cards accepted in the UK because it will be argued it is Nanny-state and big brother and who trusts the government with data these days? Of course then there will be claims we are living in a police state etc etc etc.

 

[Highland Mule]

I don't want to argue, but I have seen people arrive in hospital in barely any clothing, some don't speak much English, if any. Others are so high off their faces they might as well be from Mars.

Picture the headlines- man dies in hospital car park as NHS staff try to determine if he is eligible for treatment?

You call and ambulance in the USA and they will be wanting to know who is paying the second you are wheeled through the doors. I'm not here justifying or defend UK healthcare protocols: only explain what I know can and does happen.

Someone coming to the UK as an economic migrant currently enjoys a lot of rights and protections that would not be applied to a UK national abroad.

100% agree that pre-triage is not the time to do the administration, and I have no problem with society picking up the tab for those that can’t afford it, but if we have a third party perfectly happy and willing to pay the costs, why cannot the administration be handled as part of patient discharge? It’s lazy not to bill the French, the Germans or any other EU nation, given they have agreed to pay.

Written as someone whose MIL was an admissions ward administrator.

 

[ollie989898]

100% agree that pre-triage is not the time to do the administration, and I have no problem with society picking up the tab for those that can’t afford it, but if we have a third party perfectly happy and willing to pay the costs, why cannot the administration be handled as part of patient discharge? It’s lazy not to bill the French, the Germans or any other EU nation, given they have agreed to pay.

Written as someone whose MIL was an admissions ward administrator.

The only reason I have heard cited was by a NHS chief who said hospitals don't have time to play immigration officer as well. Of course they are strapped for cash and will drag their heels to do anything that might cost them money.

I believe the UK government was paying foreign countries several billion per year for healthcare for UK nationals abroad but the NHS was very slow in doing the reverse, not many million was claimed back. I suppose places like Greece etc do you expect them to pay?