Will you be looking to take part in the future SFI/ELMS scheme? - 21/09/21

[Steevo]

Thanks for clarifying this.

We are just about to end our 1st 5 year MTS scheme and are renewing it with another.
I’m told, rightly or wrongly, that we cannot run an early (pilot) SFI at the same time.
My intention is to join ELMS in 2024 (or as soon as it properly starts) and switch over our MTS into it, plus all the other environmental bits we are/will be doing by then.

We have now almost completely switched to DD and are hoping that the massive amount of CO2 this stops releasing from the soil into the atmosphere will be recognised within ELMS
We also have a lot of Permanent Pasture, which we hope will be recognised for its environment benefit too by then.

As with so many of these things, there is an awful lot of talk about it until it gets closer to the actual start date and fully clarified.
Too much waffle and speculation about it all until it actually starts, puts a hell of a lot of people off.

The current quoted pilot SFI figures are far too small.
ELMS is intended to start in 2024, yet BPS won’t fully end until 2027.
As the total amount of BPS/CS money is ring-fenced to be redistributed, once it has fully ended, Surely the full rates of SFI/ELMS cannot be fully achieved until after 2027.

This is causing the most enormously confusing feck-up!
Especially as it is supposed to be designed that ANY farmer should be able to do this in a day, without requiring an Agent to help!

.....and after all that you're still intending to join ELMS in 2024?

 

[steveR]

This is causing the most enormously confusing feck-up!
Especially as it is supposed to be designed that ANY farmer should be able to do this in a day, without requiring an Agent to help!

Look at the illustrious members of the ELMS Consultation Group...

Brown corduroy trousers are much in evidence... complexity is the name of the game.

 

[db9go]

Thanks for clarifying this.

We are just about to end our 1st 5 year MTS scheme and are renewing it with another.
I’m told, rightly or wrongly, that we cannot run an early (pilot) SFI at the same time.
My intention is to join ELMS in 2024 (or as soon as it properly starts) and switch over our MTS into it, plus all the other environmental bits we are/will be doing by then.

We have now almost completely switched to DD and are hoping that the massive amount of CO2 this stops releasing from the soil into the atmosphere will be recognised within ELMS
We also have a lot of Permanent Pasture, which we hope will be recognised for its environment benefit too by then.

As with so many of these things, there is an awful lot of talk about it until it gets closer to the actual start date and fully clarified.
Too much waffle and speculation about it all until it actually starts, puts a hell of a lot of people off.

The current quoted pilot SFI figures are far too small.
ELMS is intended to start in 2024, yet BPS won’t fully end until 2027.
As the total amount of BPS/CS money is ring-fenced to be redistributed, once it has fully ended, Surely the full rates of SFI/ELMS cannot be fully achieved until after 2027.

This is causing the most enormously confusing feck-up!
Especially as it is supposed to be designed that ANY farmer should be able to do this in a day, without requiring an Agent to help!

Is yours owner farmed or tenanted

 

[Two Tone]

.....and after all that you're still intending to join ELMS in 2024?

It will depend on grain sale prices to a huge extent.
However, unless those prices are high, like many, we probably won’t survive without some sort of financial assistance by way of ELMS.

By 2024, with underground irrigated water that so much of the rest of the world’s agriculture is relying on completely running out, we could see such a shortage of food that ALL these Environmental schemes have to disappear for us to physically be able to grow enough food.
Commodity prices may go up so much that even my CS areas that we no longer grow food crops on, would become profitable again every year, rather than 2 out of 5.


A tomato is mostly water. By the time it gets to your kitchen it took 100 times more water to grow it and get it there than the water it contains within it!

Cheap American Beef from feed lots being feed wheat could end up costing far more that grass fed beef.

 

[Two Tone]

Is yours owner farmed or tenanted

Owned

 

[HatsOff]

Thanks for clarifying this.

We are just about to end our 1st 5 year MTS scheme and are renewing it with another.
I’m told, rightly or wrongly, that we cannot run an early (pilot) SFI at the same time.
My intention is to join ELMS in 2024 (or as soon as it properly starts) and switch over our MTS into it, plus all the other environmental bits we are/will be doing by then.

We have now almost completely switched to DD and are hoping that the massive amount of CO2 this stops releasing from the soil into the atmosphere will be recognised within ELMS
We also have a lot of Permanent Pasture, which we hope will be recognised for its environment benefit too by then.

As with so many of these things, there is an awful lot of talk about it until it gets closer to the actual start date and fully clarified.
Too much waffle and speculation about it all until it actually starts, puts a hell of a lot of people off.

The current quoted pilot SFI figures are far too small.
ELMS is intended to start in 2024, yet BPS won’t fully end until 2027.
As the total amount of BPS/CS money is ring-fenced to be redistributed, once it has fully ended, Surely the full rates of SFI/ELMS cannot be fully achieved until after 2027.

This is causing the most enormously confusing feck-up!
Especially as it is supposed to be designed that ANY farmer should be able to do this in a day, without requiring an Agent to help!

I think the DEFRA lady said the prices were based on 2013 prices, so they probably will go up at the end of the pilot (although why anyone would do the pilot just so that they lose money, I do not know). Given that BPS isn't index linked, and the RPI index is likely below agriculture industry inflation anyway (gets suppressed with consumer electronics - great!), it doesn't bode well.

In our discussions, well probably claim on stuff we do anyway (hedgerows, permanent pasture). Might give the soil standards a sniff. But the change of land use etc do not stack up even if prices dip, just because of the work you have to put into them.

 

[The Seeker]

They are wayyyyyy out of cock in tearms of price per acre, anyways the waters getting short and the world is hungry and they can’t take the rain away … tho how they would love to. Unless the money is fair I’ll be paddling my own boat

 

[Two Tone]

I think the DEFRA lady said the prices were based on 2013 prices, so they probably will go up at the end of the pilot (although why anyone would do the pilot just so that they lose money, I do not know). Given that BPS isn't index linked, and the RPI index is likely below agriculture industry inflation anyway (gets suppressed with consumer electronics - great!), it doesn't bode well.

In our discussions, well probably claim on stuff we do anyway (hedgerows, permanent pasture). Might give the soil standards a sniff. But the change of land use etc do not stack up even if prices dip, just because of the work you have to put into them.

I may be wrong, but I’m assuming that the SFI pilot is being funded by money savings from the reduced amount of BPS we will be getting as from last year.
The amount of money available is ring-fenced from what was the BPS when we were part of the EU.
If this amount available is correct, it will increase as the BPS payout reduces in years to come up until 2027.

But as mentioned before, by the time we get there, the whole idea of taking vast amounts of food crop growing land out of production on environmental grounds may have to be completely thrown out of the window.
It sure as hell is going to happen sooner or later.
Bring it on!

 

[db9go]

Owned

As things stand today and into the future i would not trust any Politian's or civil servant of any party.
They will do any thing just to keep the voters happy this is not new it has happened before and will happen again.
3 Day week
With high energy cost even electric cars are costing 75% of normal fuel cost away from home and not taxed yet.

 

[delilah]

the whole idea of taking vast amounts of food crop growing land out of production on environmental grounds may have to be completely thrown out of the window.

Which, in a nutshell, is why the SFI has to be designed to deliver environmental benefit/ public goods, without taking land out of production. edit: or lowering yields.

 

[db9go]

The worlds in a mess it will be every one for them self shortly Trump tried to put China back into china and slow down globalization and bring on localism this is what its all about
longer lead times and having to wait

 

[steveR]

Which, in a nutshell, is why the SFI has to be designed to deliver environmental benefit/ public goods, without taking land out of production. edit: or lowering yields.

Well my caveat on that would be, without taking land out of production, PERMANENTLY. So no massed planting of trees and the like. It is foolhardiness and immorality of the first order, to effectively remove our ability to grow food.

Stick to short term enviro options only on open land, encourage and pay for water protection features. Yes..... put PP in....

 

[DRC]

Why do folks think the hedgerow options are so great. Not allowed to trim every year , even 1 in 3 years I think. By that time the hedge is costs twice as much in contractors charges to cut and isn’t any better for wildlife

 

[delilah]

Why do folks think the hedgerow options are so great. Not allowed to trim every year , even 1 in 3 years I think. By that time the hedge is costs twice as much in contractors charges to cut and isn’t any better for wildlife

For sure, but that's the detail of a hedgerow option, rather than being against a hedgerow option per se.
If the money would be better spent gapping up, laying and managing properly, rather than cutting cutting frequency, then they need to be told.

 

[steveR]

Why do folks think the hedgerow options are so great. Not allowed to trim every year , even 1 in 3 years I think. By that time the hedge is costs twice as much in contractors charges to cut and isn’t any better for wildlife

I am delighted to see the back of the CS restrictions on hedge maintenance here... I always was "flexible" in the management anyway, but the risk of an over zealous Inspector lurking was always a pain. Get a wet winter and miss the cutting window and you have 5 year growth to manage!

PS I do always try and leave cutting of hedges until as late as possible to allow the birds access to the fruit.... Unlike some, who thrash back every autumn

 

[Two Tone]

Which, in a nutshell, is why the SFI has to be designed to deliver environmental benefit/ public goods, without taking land out of production. edit: or lowering yields.

Let’s hope there is enough spare land left for it to be able to do so!
When foods gets expensive as all surpluses disappear, it’ll be “Feck the environment, give me something to eat!”.

 

[BenAdamsAgri]

Yes, we hopefully will be.

388ha arable farm, taking out around 13% of our worse performing areas that lose us money anyway.

Scheme pays 20k more for us than the equivalent css options, just have to pick the right priorities.

Almost seems a no brainer for our current situation

 

[mountfarm]

We wanted it to work but it just doesn’t for us. We had our telephone interview about why we were not applying. They listened but didn’t agree that the financial offering needed to be doubled for it to be viable. The person we spoke to said the figure might be increased by 10% but certainly no more. When our mid tier finishes in 2 years we will just have to rip it all out and recrop it by the looks of things.

 

[BrianV]

NFU seeks delay to BPS cuts for England in 2022 and 2023​

© Tim Scrivener
The NFU is urging the government to postpone its plans to slash basic payment rates for farmers and land managers in England in 2022 and 2023 amid a turbulent period for UK agriculture.
Direct payments in England will be phased out over a seven-year agricultural transition period (2021-27), starting this December where most farmers will receive a 5-25% cut to their annual Basic Payment Scheme (BPS) cheque.
The NFU is not calling for the planned reduction in BPS payments for 2021 to be reversed.
See also: Read the latest news and articles on Transition here
However, it is seeking the postponement to BPS reductions in 2022 and 2023, alongside a review of Defra’s future farming programme for England

---------
Finally the NFU is waking up to reality, now we need for them to agree to push the government so it is limited to around the first 100 hectares with any new ELMS applications above that level, they should not be even considering cutting the SFP until ELMS is up & running if their promises are ever again to be taken seriously !

 

[steveR]

We wanted it to work but it just doesn’t for us. We had our telephone interview about why we were not applying. They listened but didn’t agree that the financial offering needed to be doubled for it to be viable. The person we spoke to said the figure might be increased by 10% but certainly no more. When our mid tier finishes in 2 years we will just have to rip it all out and recrop it by the looks of things.

Happening here as I type (almost) miles of margins coming up this winter/next spring.