Wintering of breeding tup lambs

[reverand]

I went to an open day there a few years back and they took us to a decent lowland farm where all the tups were kept. It was all grass at the time from what I remember.
You could charge a premium and offer a full service like weighing recording showing growth rates

 

[neilo]

That is still the case. There was an article in one of the papers recently about the chap that looks after them. Its a bit of a con really I think. I'm not accusing them of lying but I saw on one of their leaflets that they were "bred at 1000ft' (or something similar). The fact that they then spend 2/3 of their lives on top quality lowland grazing isn't really mentioned. I'm sure that they aren't fed concentrates, but rotationally grazing top quality chicory leys is as good as a bag of feed. They have as much chance of 'melting' as anyone else's tups.

Some of them are indeed born outdoors at 1000' (in amongst wind turbines), but most of the multiplier flocks are far from that scenario, with several that I know of, lambing indoors too.

 

[andybk]

I believe Innovis still send all theirs off to be reared like that, not on dairy grass, but root crops over winter, then on dedicated rearing units with rotationally grazed chicory/PRG keys over the summer. Unless things have changed recently, and they now have to face a few more challenges?

sort of goes against the NZ ehos that rams should be grown in a worse environment than they are expected to perform under , But i doubt innovis would sell many rams that way , At the end of the day innovis realise , most buyers still buy by eye .

 

[unlacedgecko]

At the end of the day innovis realise , most buyers still buy by eye .

Which is why most of the UK sheep industry is not ready for subsidy removal.

 

[unlacedgecko]

I went to an open day there a few years back and they took us to a decent lowland farm where all the tups were kept. It was all grass at the time from what I remember.
You could charge a premium and offer a full service like weighing recording showing growth rates

I could offer such a service. If anyone is interested please drop me a PM.

 

[beltextexel]

Ended up grazing tup hoggs on pp until the beginning of Feb then on to some turnips until I'm told to take them off - approx middle of April. Still haven't seen a feed bag. They were bouncing around like baby lambs on this the other day!

 

[M-J-G]

Some of them are indeed born outdoors at 1000' (in amongst wind turbines), but most of the multiplier flocks are far from that scenario, with several that I know of, lambing indoors too.

To be fair to ram breeders, how many tups move onto a better run when they are sold?
I don't know many ram breeders who are on poor upland farms, so there is a good chance that rams will go onto poorer going than they were on pre sale.

In theory, sheep going onto a 1000ft farm to work should be bred on such farms, as they will no doubt get a check when they relocate from softer going lowlands, likewise with latitude.

For this reason I think home bred tups tend to be tougher and survive better than bought in ones bought from a breeder who will most likely be on good land.

On the Innovis multiplier farms, I know one fairly large scale one who runs in foothills running up onto Heather. I appreciate that is just one out of many.

 

[neilo]

To be fair to ram breeders, how many tups move onto a better run when they are sold?
I don't know many ram breeders who are on poor upland farms, so there is a good chance that rams will go onto poorer going than they were on pre sale.

In theory, sheep going onto a 1000ft farm to work should be bred on such farms, as they will no doubt get a check when they relocate from softer going lowlands, likewise with latitude.

For this reason I think home bred tups tend to be tougher and survive better than bought in ones bought from a breeder who will most likely be on good land.

On the Innovis multiplier farms, I know one fairly large scale one who runs in foothills running up onto Heather. I appreciate that is just one out of many.

Do the rams get reared there, or are they sent off to rearing units in the Autumn, to stay on roots then chicory/ryegrass leys until just before sale? One of the biggest ones is near Plymouth IIRC. I've not been down that way for a couple of years, but I don't remember seeing many mountains there then.

 

[neilo]

View attachment 471058

Ended up grazing tup hoggs on pp until the beginning of Feb then on to some turnips until I'm told to take them off - approx middle of April. Still haven't seen a feed bag. They were bouncing around like baby lambs on this the other day!

I was wondering how you were getting on the other day. Mine ended up going onto roots at the turn of the year, just as it started getting wet. They are on one of my wettest fields so they have a runback onto the bare pp field they were on before (I'm farm assured now, so I have to), which I'm sure makes them dirtier from walking through gateways when the roots are grazed down. Having a fresh patch every 6-7 days and clearing up tight between.

 

[Bury the Trash]

None of that roots and chicory nonsense ())) where i buy my Rams, just pp. and part of a lfa ...

Its not rocket science and wasnt it one of the first things that dad told me was to buy store stock from a market in a lesser area than our own.. @martin gribbon

 

[beltextexel]

As a side note, the turnips that the tups are grazing are rented in on a p/head basis and are the only turnips we are using that we didn't drill ourselves. They are very thin on the ground in places but because of this, the bulbs are massive and lasting the sheep well. The ones we drilled ourselves look better from the road and lush, green and thick but have tiny bulbs and aren't lasting long at all.

 

[Man_in_black]

View attachment 471058

Ended up grazing tup hoggs on pp until the beginning of Feb then on to some turnips until I'm told to take them off - approx middle of April. Still haven't seen a feed bag. They were bouncing around like baby lambs on this the other day!

Is that a blue tex at back, or has one of them just face planted into a muddy pulled??

 

[Ysgythan]

We are not shearling ram specialists, but with the best will in the world you can't always sell every ram lamb as a lamb so we do end up with a couple some years to run around.

To be honest they are a pain, not enough to justify their own tack, we don't want them on the same place we tack the ewe lambs as we keep them free of the tup, and if you leave them out all winter they just graze in front of the ewes and lambs at a crucial time.

This year we have three, all have worked and have been run since with the two stock tups, one a lamb himself, on a reseeded ley. Last week we bought them in because they were getting on top if it. They are now on silage, with soaked sugar beet and coarse mix fed twice a day.

After lambing they'll go out on grass until shearing when we'll start them on the trough again. Innovis, @easyram1 and @neilo are the exceptions, not the rule. Men don't generally pay for hard done by tups. They wouldn't pay us anyway which is why we went over to do lambs in the mid 90s. We haven't got the power in the ground for lambs off a grass/forage only system and we haven't got the scope to run all rams around as shearlings as we'd have to keep less ewes.

I was interested to see on twitter a couple of years ago that the criteria for the "great from grass" sale was no hard feed for three months before, and "grass" included fodder crops.

I think the most important thing is not whether you feed or not, but that you're honest about it (especially how much and of what) so the buyer can make an informed choice.

 

[Man_in_black]

but that you're honest about it

100%

 

[M-J-G]

Do the rams get reared there, or are they sent off to rearing units in the Autumn, to stay on roots then chicory/ryegrass leys until just before sale? One of the biggest ones is near Plymouth IIRC. I've not been down that way for a couple of years, but I don't remember seeing many mountains there then.

I cannot say for sure, I just know what the farm is like.

He has them until selling time, but I haven't followed where on the farm they graze.

I was wondering how you were getting on the other day. Mine ended up going onto roots at the turn of the year, just as it started getting wet. They are on one of my wettest fields so they have a runback onto the bare pp field they were on before (I'm farm assured now, so I have to), which I'm sure makes them dirtier from walking through gateways when the roots are grazed down. Having a fresh patch every 6-7 days and clearing up tight between.
View attachment 471102

I'm pretty sure he'll not be able to grow a fancy crop like that on his place though.
Hats off, that stuff looks great feeding!

 

[neilo]

None of that roots and chicory nonsense )))) where i buy my Rams, just pp. and part of a lfa ...

Its not rocket science and wasnt it one of the first things that dad told me was to buy store stock from a market in a lesser area than our own.. @martin gribbon

Not knocking the guy, but how does he winter them?
A friend of mine is 1000' up with little more than banks and rushes. His sheep are 'hardier' because of it, but they live in a shed all winter, eating bought in hay and concentrates. There used to be a Charollais breeder on the top of Shap, until 2001, who brought out tremendous ram lambs every year. Is there any difference between a shed on a hard farm at high altitude, and a shed on a kind farm at sea level?

 

[Ysgythan]

Not knocking the guy, but how does he winter them?
A friend of mine is 1000' up with little more than banks and rushes. His sheep are 'hardier' because of it, but they live in a shed all winter, eating bought in hay and concentrates. There used to be a Charollais breeder on the top of Shap, until 2001, who brought out tremendous ram lambs every year. Is there any difference between a shed on a hard farm at high altitude, and a shed on a kind farm at sea level?

Yes, the high one is much healthier.

 

[Man_in_black]

Yes, the high one is much healthier.

Why...??

 

[andybk]

After lambing they'll go out on grass until shearing when we'll start them on the trough again. Innovis, @easyram1 and @neilo are the exceptions, not the rule. Men don't generally pay for hard done by tups. They wouldn't pay us anyway which is why we went over to do lambs in the mid 90s. We haven't got the power in the ground for lambs off a grass/forage only system and we haven't got the scope to run all rams around as shearlings as we'd have to keep less ewes.

I was interested to see on twitter a couple of years ago that the criteria for the "great from grass" sale was no hard feed for three months before, and "grass" included fodder crops.

I think the most important thing is not whether you feed or not, but that you're honest about it (especially how much and of what) so the buyer can make an informed choice.

we have done them exactly as commercial shearling 2t ewes since we started (80 a year) since about 1980 , so our costs are minimal , all kept on grass keep or dirty stubbles (no roots) all winter , never had them in , even in snow . we dont sell any ram lambs (we will this year ) . the main reason is to be sure of true evaluation of sires on old p/p only and good working rumens .and similar situations their offspring will have to perform under .
men WILL pay for hard done shearlings when they know your system ,most sold in the £400 - 600 bracket and they understand they arnt getting the left overs from ram lamb sales .
when the sh ram they bought is better next march than he was when they bought him and he tupped a big pack of ewes and had another hard winter , they are hooked and market chatter will sell even more .
I will add they are nearly all sold direct off farm , and our "small but blocky " rams sold at wilton (the only auction we attend) often top the sale , leaving the well fed ram lamb and shearling breeders scratching their heads .

 

[gwi1890]

I was wondering how you were getting on the other day. Mine ended up going onto roots at the turn of the year, just as it started getting wet. They are on one of my wettest fields so they have a runback onto the bare pp field they were on before (I'm farm assured now, so I have to), which I'm sure makes them dirtier from walking through gateways when the roots are grazed down. Having a fresh patch every 6-7 days and clearing up tight between.
View attachment 471102

Have grown Roots for the first time this year 12 acre of stubble turnips dd into pp twins are on now and I will take them out 2 weeks pre lambing, Just wandering what do you guys do with the field after? Reeseed with grass or a different type of root? I'm not arable btw.