Wintering of breeding tup lambs

Is that a blue tex at back, or has one of them just face planted into a muddy pulled??

Yes blue Tex stock tup we bought a couple of years ago. Don't keep any blue Tex ewes but thought we'd try one on the commercials.

We are not shearling ram specialists, but with the best will in the world you can't always sell every ram lamb as a lamb so we do end up with a couple some years to run around.

To be honest they are a pain, not enough to justify their own tack, we don't want them on the same place we tack the ewe lambs as we keep them free of the tup, and if you leave them out all winter they just graze in front of the ewes and lambs at a crucial time.

This year we have three, all have worked and have been run since with the two stock tups, one a lamb himself, on a reseeded ley. Last week we bought them in because they were getting on top if it. They are now on silage, with soaked sugar beet and coarse mix fed twice a day.

After lambing they'll go out on grass until shearing when we'll start them on the trough again. Innovis, @easyram1 and @neilo are the exceptions, not the rule. Men don't generally pay for hard done by tups. They wouldn't pay us anyway which is why we went over to do lambs in the mid 90s. We haven't got the power in the ground for lambs off a grass/forage only system and we haven't got the scope to run all rams around as shearlings as we'd have to keep less ewes.

I was interested to see on twitter a couple of years ago that the criteria for the "great from grass" sale was no hard feed for three months before, and "grass" included fodder crops.

I think the most important thing is not whether you feed or not, but that you're honest about it (especially how much and of what) so the buyer can make an informed choice.

We have ended up forgetting about the ram lamb job, the only way to get on if your selling lambs at a mart is to stuff them with feed, which isn't something I'm keen on. We had a cracking beltex tup lamb a couple of years ago that grew like stink and after weaning, we decided to sell him as a lamb and ended up putting him on an ad lib feeder but by the time we got to the sale, we realised he needed cake since the day he was born.
After that we moved lambing from Feb, keeping lambs inside for 3 weeks, to march and turning lambs out after a couple of days. They seem much healthier for it. We will feed the ewes after lambing if grass is short, which it is most years due to been properly stocked, and the lambs then spend the rest of the year on pp until the turnips as of now. Then go back on to pp from the middle of April approx through to sale time. We have usually fed our tups nearer sale time but are trying to move away from this and this year, will offer buyers the choice of grass fed or concentrate fed tups. Will be interesting to see what they go for. We are running approx 85 tup hoggs through the winter atm so feel the number does justify the keep they are on. They are at the opposite end of the field to 130 of their sisters so I'm hoping the electric fence is doing its job!
 
Not knocking the guy, but how does he winter them?
A friend of mine is 1000' up with little more than banks and rushes. His sheep are 'hardier' because of it:rolleyes:, but they live in a shed all winter, eating bought in hay and concentrates. There used to be a Charollais breeder on the top of Shap, until 2001(n), who brought out tremendous ram lambs every year. Is there any difference between a shed on a hard farm at high altitude, and a shed on a kind farm at sea level?:scratchhead:

If animals are kept indoors in an artificial world of coarse mix and cabbages up until sale, then there is little difference what the farm is like.

But when you are talking of more conventionally kept animals, I'm not sure that a poor hill farm that has to house ewes in winter is to be compared to a lowland farm with deep ploughable soil and can sustain stock on forage and root crops.
I would bet on sheep that spend 9 months outdoor on a rush growing Hill Farm being better fit for Hill life than a totally outdoor lowland born and reared sheep.
 

Ysgythan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ammanford
we have done them exactly as commercial shearling 2t ewes since we started (80 a year) since about 1980 , so our costs are minimal , all kept on grass keep or dirty stubbles (no roots) all winter , never had them in , even in snow . we dont sell any ram lambs (we will this year ) . the main reason is to be sure of true evaluation of sires on old p/p only and good working rumens .and similar situations their offspring will have to perform under .
men WILL pay for hard done shearlings when they know your system ,most sold in the £400 - 600 bracket and they understand they arnt getting the left overs from ram lamb sales .
when the sh ram they bought is better next march than he was when they bought him and he tupped a big pack of ewes and had another hard winter , they are hooked and market chatter will sell even more .
I will add they are nearly all sold direct off farm , and our "small but blocky " rams sold at wilton (the only auction we attend) often top the sale , leaving the well fed ram lamb and shearling breeders scratching their heads .

Would need £2-300 more than that for shearlings to justify running them round.
 

Ysgythan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ammanford
If animals are kept indoors in an artificial world of coarse mix and cabbages up until sale, then there is little difference what the farm is like.

But when you are talking of more conventionally kept animals, I'm not sure that a poor hill farm that has to house ewes in winter is to be compared to a lowland farm with deep ploughable soil and can sustain stock on forage and root crops.
I would bet on sheep that spend 9 months outdoor on a rush growing Hill Farm being better fit for Hill life than a totally outdoor lowland born and reared sheep.

Buy West sell East was a mantra in this area for a reason.
 

Ysgythan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ammanford
the only way to get on if your selling lambs at a mart is to stuff them with feed, which isn't something I'm keen on.

...turning lambs out after a couple of days. They seem much healthier for it.

Well unlike the Beltex boys we don't run a pollytunel system. We lamb end of Feb and they go out as soon as they can for the same reason. They get creep from 6-12 weeks. On weaning they go onto coarse mix and sugar beet twice a day. We put a field of Tyfon every year and they go on that from when it's ready to sale. Like John Lewis they're never knowingly undersold. They aren't over stuffed or over fat and retain mobility and fitness. It may not be this forum's cup of tea, but you lot aren't really representative of NSA buyers because they average quite well to repeat customers.
 

Keepers

Member
Location
South West
All over wintered on pp here, up until this year which is the first time I have ever had them on anything different (due to lack of grazing)

Moved them last week off of the very bare grass onto turnips, they aren't sure what has hit them but they should look better for it

No meal or cake or silage or cuddling
 

Ysgythan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ammanford
All over wintered on pp here, up until this year which is the first time I have ever had them on anything different (due to lack of grazing)

Moved them last week off of the very bare grass onto turnips, they aren't sure what has hit them but they should look better for it

No meal or cake or silage or cuddling

Sell out...
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
Would need £2-300 more than that for shearlings to justify running them round.
lol , need to get in the real world , they dont cost us much more than mule shearling ewes to produce . £600 straight off farm , no shows , concs / entry fees , or registration . same customers year in year out , only time involved, a phone call and an hour to collect , that extra 2- 300 , will cost that in extras
The only hard bit is finding new stock rams that will do the same on low inputs
 
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andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
I doubt there are many rams any where in the world that are raised that way.
agree the opposite is true , more is the pity . i doubt all the fancy rams will last long if subs go . the cost to produce that eye candy will be unsustainable . especially when a lot have very average ebv despite having the best of everything .
I see some posts on facebook of people weaning the whole flock of lambs (breeding rams) at 8 weeks old , the only way you can do that is indoor hard pushed lambs , how the hell is that going to be any good for the commercial farmer (or have any meaningful recording ) . No doubt the lambs will be crackers at Builth , but 12 months later , prob 6 ?
 
If animals are kept indoors in an artificial world of coarse mix and cabbages up until sale, then there is little difference what the farm is like.

But when you are talking of more conventionally kept animals, I'm not sure that a poor hill farm that has to house ewes in winter is to be compared to a lowland farm with deep ploughable soil and can sustain stock on forage and root crops.
I would bet on sheep that spend 9 months outdoor on a rush growing Hill Farm being better fit for Hill life than a totally outdoor lowland born and reared sheep.
Agreed.

I buy very few tups in these days , I breed most of what I need myself , and the few that come here to add fresh genetics are invariably from the same farms that I usually buy from as they have a sympathetic approach to my own on a range of traits including lambing ease , lamb vigour and health status.

Increasingly , I have restricted my purchasing to rams off hill units. If a tup is going to come here where it's windswept , wet , exposed , shallow soiled and N-W facing , then a pampered low ground ram irrespective of a concentrate or forage reared system , has frankly not been reared in a challenging enough environment to prepare said ram for life here. If we really believe the stuff pedigree breeders roll out about "my stock have to be reared in a more challenging environment than the one they will go on to work in," then surely most rams of all breeds are going to have to be moved to the top of Ben Nevis??

Sorry boys , but no. There have been plenty of low ground tups here in the past , and they never lasted as long as my hill farm reared Texels do today , [not bred on my farm , but the best one's have lasted for 7 or 8 seasons.]

Tellingly however , the tups that last the longest on average , are the lads that are bred right here. The lambs that stand up best to the bad weather at lambing time are the lambs off the homebred tups. Then the lambs off the hill farm bred tups that I buy in , and the softest lambs are from the low ground bred sires. Didn't really start to appreciate this until a few years ago , now it seems to be the case every year.

My homebred Texel tup lambs are on grass alone , they've got a nice green bite by the standards of this farm in Winter , and since it's now February and they're growing and framing away nicely , I think they'll be fine on that alone. They would normally get a bite of sugar beet pellets in a wet Winter , but this has so far been an exceptionally kind one. :)
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
agree the opposite is true , more is the pity . i doubt all the fancy rams will last long if subs go . the cost to produce that eye candy will be unsustainable . especially when a lot have very average ebv despite having the best of everything .
I see some posts on facebook of people weaning the whole flock of lambs (breeding rams) at 8 weeks old , the only way you can do that is indoor hard pushed lambs , how the hell is that going to be any good for the commercial farmer (or have any meaningful recording ) . No doubt the lambs will be crackers at Builth , but 12 months later , prob 6 ?

AGAIN, 'having the best of everything' has no bearing on ebv's, that's the whole point of them. :banghead: My highest index ram lambs for the last 2 years, have come from the March lambing flock, who see no creep at all, ever.

On your 8 week weaning point, back home, when I was lambing indoors in March, I routinely weaned when my youngest lambs were 8 weeks old, moving them to aftermath grazing instead of leaving them in old river meadows whose feed quality was dropping rapidly. They never saw creep either, just kept them going on good grass.;)
I've just weaned my December pedigree lambs (creep fed and at 8 weeks old). The same genetics seem to cope just fine in my March flock, where they have to 'rough it'. If that wasn't the case, I'd be looking hard at the genetics. When we get some grass growth, above what the thousand other sheep here need, they will be out and weaned down onto green stuff only.
 

Ysgythan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ammanford
lol , need to get in the real world , they dont cost us much more than mule shearling ewes to produce . £600 straight off farm , no shows , concs / entry fees , or registration . same customers year in year out , only time involved, a phone call and an hour to collect , that extra 2- 300 , will cost that in extras
The only hard bit is finding new stock rams that will do the same on low inputs

I wasn't talking about extra cost, but less income.
 

Ysgythan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ammanford
No, but it's better if your ram was born to those conditions. Then he'll cope better.

We're not particularly high, but quite exposed and on poor, wet ground. I don't think anybody has factored that in to their decisions at all. In fact our regular customers are mainly from Powys, North Wales, Shropshire and the South West.
 

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