Wolf attacks increasing

[Fallowfield]

If some species of animal are to be regarded as evil, does that mean that others are to be regarded as benevolent and virtuous?

And is it OK to eat them?

 

[7610 super q]

I think the question we all want to know is...........do wolves eat ramblers ?

 

[Filthyfarmer]

I think the question we all want to know is...........do wolves eat ramblers ?

and badgers.........

 

[Deereone]

French farmers will not tolerate this situation. Le chasseurs will intervene.

 

[neilo]

A German vet & farmer told me last year that they are having huge problems with predation over there too and, as posted above, almost impossible to claim the compensation that is supposed to be provided. Large numbers of sheep farmers in some areas are giving up on sheep farming as a result, they've had enough.

I suppose that could always help UK lamb exports (assuming we can competitively export to the EU after next year of course), but a warning of what would come about with re-introduction here.

 

[Fallowfield]

A German vet & farmer told me last year that they are having huge problems with predation over there too and, as posted above, almost impossible to claim the compensation that is supposed to be provided. Large numbers of sheep farmers in some areas are giving up on sheep farming as a result, they've had enough.

I suppose that could always help UK lamb exports (assuming we can competitively export to the EU after next year of course), but a warning of what would come about with re-introduction here.

Is German sheep farming not dying out for reasons that have nothing to do with wolf predation?

http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-sheep-farmers-a-dwindling-breed/av-17576145

 

[Pieces_of_Eight]

It's possible that reintroducing apex predators (wolf and lynx) would reduce the number of mesopredators ie foxes to the extent that domestic farm animals would benefit.

The mechanisms involved are complex and subtle and require detailed consideration rather than knee jerk, binary responses.

I've seen similar in Yellowstone National Park, where without wolves, coyotes & foxes ate all the small mammals and very few deer/elk. The browsers overpopulated then kept the trees back and turned the land into an open prarie, with no trees for the beavers to eat and build with.

Once wolves were reintroduced, the coyotes & foxes were eaten and out-competed, the deer/elk were brought into check and the small mammals recovered and the beavers returned.

 

[Fallowfield]

I've seen similar in Yellowstone National Park, where without wolves, coyotes & foxes ate all the small mammals and very few deer/elk. The browsers overpopulated then kept the trees back and turned the land into an open prarie, with no trees for the beavers to eat and build with.

Once wolves were reintroduced, the coyotes & foxes were eaten and out-competed, the deer/elk were brought into check and the small mammals recovered and the beavers returned.

I don't think it was as simple as that. The coyotes got hammered, which resulted in more foxes, because the coyotes had suppressed the foxes.

The deer were disrupted and made to keep moving, which benefited the flora.

It's complicated, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered. And it is possible that reintroducing apex predators might benefit farmers.

 

[beefandsleep]

Wolf reintroduction has made sheep farming unviable in many parts of Europe. First hand from Italian farmers in Tuscany who have seen flocks devastated.

 

[beefandsleep]

If you want to see wolves in the wild in the U.K. you will first have to have a discussion about wether you wish to remove farmers from large tracts of the country. The beneficial effects of predators such as wolves on the behaviour of herbivorous animals on a wilderness environment are quite easy to demonstrate, however in a farmed environment the manager of the land does not wish to see grazing pressure determined by prey species reactions to predation pressure.
The farmer determines when and how to graze different areas of hill and moor to maximise forage use and availability, he doesn’t wish to see the encroachment of scrub on his pastures.
Reintroduction without the support of the local population is doomed to failure and empty words and assurances that it will be alright, they won’t eat the sheep but if they do we will compensate will not cut it. Especially given the experiences of sheep farmers throughout Europe. The Italian farmers I spoke to say we would be mad to allow it and they are growing increasingly militant on the issue.

 

[Fallowfield]

If you want to see wolves in the wild in the U.K. you will first have to have a discussion about wether you wish to remove farmers from large tracts of the country. The beneficial effects of predators such as wolves on the behaviour of herbivorous animals on a wilderness environment are quite easy to demonstrate, however in a farmed environment the manager of the land does not wish to see grazing pressure determined by prey species reactions to predation pressure.
The farmer determines when and how to graze different areas of hill and moor to maximise forage use and availability, he doesn’t wish to see the encroachment of scrub on his pastures.
Reintroduction without the support of the local population is doomed to failure and empty words and assurances that it will be alright, they won’t eat the sheep but if they do we will compensate will not cut it. Especially given the experiences of sheep farmers throughout Europe. The Italian farmers I spoke to say we would be mad to allow it and they are growing increasingly militant on the issue.

Once subsidies are reduced to WTO levels the reintroduction of apex predators will be the least of their worries.

 

[CharcoalWally]

It's possible that reintroducing apex predators (wolf and lynx) would reduce the number of mesopredators ie foxes to the extent that domestic farm animals would benefit.

The mechanisms involved are complex and subtle and require detailed consideration rather than knee jerk, binary responses.

Right.

So it won't be a case then that the Wolf and lynx will eat what the exterminated foxes used to eat?

 

[Paddington]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...n-saving-wolves-in-a-secret-shropshire-valley

 

[joe soapy]

Really? We seem over run with them.

back in the 80's was regularly shooting 100 + a year.
travelling the same ground now its unsual to see one even though we have better gear

 

[Fallowfield]

Right.

So it won't be a case then that the Wolf and lynx will eat what the exterminated foxes used to eat?

I think you've got to try to get an idea of how many apex predators there would be and how many fewer meso predators there would be.

Then you have to work out what prey species would be available to the apex predators that weren't available to the meso predators eg deer.

Then calculate what impact those changed population numbers would have on prey species.

It's not straightforward.

 

[unlacedgecko]

I watched a documentary about the reintroduction of wolves to some valley or other in America. Huge area.

There was an old boy on and in the broadest American country hick accent I’ve ever heard he said:

“The wolf is an EVIL creature. I seen one chase a buffalo down to exhaustion and when he caught it, he didn’t kill it, but just ate the soft bits until the buffalo died.
If the devil himself chose a pet, he’d choose the wolf!”

I don’t fancy one in my garden.

It was Yellowstone National Park where the wolves were reintroduced.

They have since spread from there to the rest of the lower 48. They have been so successful that several states now allow hunting of wolves, including some which allow the use of dogs. I can't see the UK ever allowing the hunting of wolves with or without dogs.

 

[beefandsleep]

Once subsidies are reduced to WTO levels the reintroduction of apex predators will be the least of their worries.

That’s a bit of a blasé comment.
If your thoughts re upland sheep farming are that its fecked anyway so the farmers concerns are not worth consideration then I don’t think you will get much support here.
I suggest you wait to see how it all pans out before you start to get all exited about re-wilding large areas of the U.K. because for that to happen there will have to be another highland clearance of a kind.

 

[beefandsleep]

I have often thought the U.K. would be better governed if the regions had their own government. Devolution was a great step toward that but England’s size and relative economic strength has led to increasing resentment and political buck passing. If England was broken up into 7 or 8 regions with a national government where each English region had equal voting power to the existing devolved governments then it would be much harder for this sort of bulls**t to be imposed by a well fed urban elite. I also think that the U.K. would be much more united.

Sorry, way off topic, delete it if you wish JP1.
Perhaps Walter can start a thread if he can think of a suitable tune to illustrate the idea?

 

[Poorbuthappy]

back in the 80's was regularly shooting 100 + a year.
travelling the same ground now its unsual to see one even though we have better gear

See them in daylight here most days, despite local keepers and chicken farmers shooting regularly.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

If wolves pose as much of a threat to humans as some of you claim I think we would have heard about it from the Danes.

I suspect, and most of the sentiment on here agrees, that the threat to livestock is more of a concern than to human life.