Wood biomass dodgy installer help/advice appreciated

[Happiness]

We had a biomass installed Dec 2015 on the non domestic RHI and it has been a problem since day 1. To cut a very long story short it has been undersized / not meeting building regs / no handover packs to name but a few of the problems.
Before we have any criticism I have to admit we are embarrassed that we were so green behind the ears and had such trust and faith in the installer. We have spent nearly £30,000 on the installation and regret it massively. It has severely impacted negatively on our life since it was put in. Time and money that has been lost and still being lost is worth not thinking about. The boiler 'heats' 3 properties, 2 of which are holiday lets and the farmhouse. We have shunned bookings as the system is unable to cope with all 3 properties. When one cottage and the farmhouse is full at this time of year the burner is filled 6-7 times a day (manual load), 6am and then every 3-4 hours until 11pm / when we go to bed. It still does not keep up.

We have spent £4000 in one year on wood (brought rounds to try and save money) and the farm and business has suffered due to loss of time processing wood / having to be on site to fill burner. We also have our own wood supply in addition from our woodland but unable to keep up hence we are buying 18 cube forestry lorries of rounds. The RHI payments do not cover it as it has been undersized.

We are in touch with NAPIT currently and the installer seems to have no intention of putting things right even though NAPIT has concluded in its report a huge amount of things wrong. We will wait to see the outcome from NAPIT and then possibly go on to RECCS / Solicitor and just hope they don't try to fold.

I am just wondering if anyone has any advice or has been through the process themselves? We really would appreciate support. It is quite isolating not knowing what the future may bring and we are concerned as we do not have the funds to correct the system ourselves (part of the reason we are going down the long road route).

 

[bobajob]

Similar thread here:

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/breach-of-contract.119088/

Cant offer much help but sounds like a lot of stress

 

[Doing it for the kids]

I would speak to farm energy in first instance.

It may be possible to change the boiler to improve the output to something bigger, what make have you? May still be able to get RHI if toy get something sorted before end of march

I suspect pipe sizes may also be small meaning if you did have enough heat you still can't distribute it well.

Did they make a schematic which you can post?

 

[Happiness]

I would speak to farm energy in first instance.

It may be possible to change the boiler to improve the output to something bigger, what make have you? May still be able to get RHI if toy get something sorted before end of march

I suspect pipe sizes may also be small meaning if you did have enough heat you still can't distribute it well.

Did they make a schematic which you can post?

I think once bank holiday is over I will be in touch with farm energy. The boiler is a CTC boiler. I think pipe size is probably one of the issues (NAPIT would not give us the detailed report unless it gets to legal stage so we don't know every little problem they found). The NAPIT inspector that came round was tutting and shaking his head at everything really, from the paperwork to every piece of equipment. We did not get a schematic diagram (one of the paperwork issues). In fact all we got was an MSC certificate, estimate and an invoice, plus the boiler manual.

NAPIT have said it is not installed to manufactures guidelines. We have paid £240 for an independent energy assessor to do a heat calculation (as we never had one from the installer and NAPIT required one) and it has concluded that the heat demand for the properties is 56.5 kw/h. That doesn't take into account boiler efficiency and heat loss. So before you even look into details of pipes and tanks the thing has been hugely undersized. The tank storing the water for the 2 cottages is too small, we have had a couple of other experts advise that the pipes carrying water underground from the buffer to the cottages may be too narrow. There was no planning notice to the council put in by them for the burner and no electrical safety certificates. The flue is unsafe. We have pumps which were a trial and we believe the installer got for free / greatly reduced price as a result, the company of the pumps has since gone into administration and they are constantly breaking down. We have no warranty information and the boiler is due its warranty service. The 2100 litre buffer tank never gets up to temperature if the temperature is less than say 15'C. We have been told the buffer tank is too big for the boiler size.

We would like to ideally put in a larger boiler, but do not have the funding to do it (hence we are going down legal routes). Cheap solution we thought was to put the 30kw oil burner that they took out of the house back into the house and just have the cottages run off the wood as a last resort. But still leaves us done over good and proper and out of pocket by installers. Installer at the moment has advised they are 'seeking legal advice' and 'waiting for people to get back to them' This was since November. The system has to be put right by mid January according to NAPIT but they haven't even wanted to acknowledge any wrongdoing so far.... 1st January. Will be seeking compensation via RECCS for lost RHI if they drag it out to beyond March.

 

[Doing it for the kids]

Best of luck, sounds like you are in the Poo.

Where are you based in the world?

 

[d williams]

I think once bank holiday is over I will be in touch with farm energy. The boiler is a CTC boiler. I think pipe size is probably one of the issues (NAPIT would not give us the detailed report unless it gets to legal stage so we don't know every little problem they found). The NAPIT inspector that came round was tutting and shaking his head at everything really, from the paperwork to every piece of equipment. We did not get a schematic diagram (one of the paperwork issues). In fact all we got was an MSC certificate, estimate and an invoice, plus the boiler manual.

NAPIT have said it is not installed to manufactures guidelines. We have paid £240 for an independent energy assessor to do a heat calculation (as we never had one from the installer and NAPIT required one) and it has concluded that the heat demand for the properties is 56.5 kw/h. That doesn't take into account boiler efficiency and heat loss. So before you even look into details of pipes and tanks the thing has been hugely undersized. The tank storing the water for the 2 cottages is too small, we have had a couple of other experts advise that the pipes carrying water underground from the buffer to the cottages may be too narrow. There was no planning notice to the council put in by them for the burner and no electrical safety certificates. The flue is unsafe. We have pumps which were a trial and we believe the installer got for free / greatly reduced price as a result, the company of the pumps has since gone into administration and they are constantly breaking down. We have no warranty information and the boiler is due its warranty service. The 2100 litre buffer tank never gets up to temperature if the temperature is less than say 15'C. We have been told the buffer tank is too big for the boiler size.

We would like to ideally put in a larger boiler, but do not have the funding to do it (hence we are going down legal routes). Cheap solution we thought was to put the 30kw oil burner that they took out of the house back into the house and just have the cottages run off the wood as a last resort. But still leaves us done over good and proper and out of pocket by installers. Installer at the moment has advised they are 'seeking legal advice' and 'waiting for people to get back to them' This was since November. The system has to be put right by mid January according to NAPIT but they haven't even wanted to acknowledge any wrongdoing so far.... 1st January. Will be seeking compensation via RECCS for lost RHI if they drag it out to beyond March.

I'd say you could be throwing good money after bad wouldn't hold your breath trying to get money out of some of these company's chasing grant rhi government money haven't usually got a pot to pee in

 

[Happiness]

Best of luck, sounds like you are in the Poo.

Where are you based in the world?

We are definitely in the brown stuff.

West wales

 

[Happiness]

I'd say you could be throwing good money after bad wouldn't hold your breath trying to get money out of some of these company's chasing grant rhi government money haven't usually got a pot to pee in

Haven't got much of a choice. I want to make sure this company cannot trade. Don't want any small family business going through what we are having to go through. You cannot go around conning people out of these sort of sums of money and carry on trading.

 

[Still Farming]

Reading your story sounds terrible.
Few points - Schematic - you should have this Or def. be on your approved rhi application and account as you won't have got rhi approval or payments otherwise -look there if you log on to Ofgem and compare what you got and they got approval on -simple ?
What about your IMO ?
Independant metering and System inspection-who did that ?
If installer did it or their friends it's not independant thus legal obligation with Ofgem void.
Heat Calculations payment to inddpendant firm ?
Why? Ofgem use to have a ready reckoner on i'ts site that you entered all system and pipe details-inside-underground etc.and click and a system heat loss calculation use to pop up ?
Do you have a open system with header tank or pressurised expansion tank sealed system ?
Do you have direct heating Or heat exchangers and what type ??
So many details and if you never did research or works or applications yourself it's easy for wise guys to trip you up.
All the Best .

 

[Happiness]

Reading your story sounds terrible.
Few points - Schematic - you should have this Or def. be on your approved rhi application and account as you won't have got rhi approval or payments otherwise -look there if you log on to Ofgem and compare what you got and they got approval on -simple ?
What about your IMO ?
Independant metering and System inspection-who did that ?
If installer did it or their friends it's not independent thus legal obligation with Ofgem void.
Heat Calculations payment to independent firm ?
Why? Ofgem use to have a ready reckoner on i'ts site that you entered all system and pipe details-inside-underground etc.and click and a system heat loss calculation use to pop up ?
Do you have a open system with header tank or pressurised expansion tank sealed system ?
Do you have direct heating Or heat exchangers and what type ??
So many details and if you never did research or works or applications yourself it's easy for wise guys to trip you up.
All the Best .

Yes we do feel embarrassed. Certainly a steep learning curve for us.
There is a very basic hand drawn diagram on our RHI application.
What is an IMO?
I have no idea what an independent metering and system inspection is. Where would I find this information on our application?
There was no independent firm who did heat calculations. We never had them. We had to pay to have them done a year after for the NAPIT complaint.
Didn't know about Ofgems ready reckoner.
The tank is pressurised expansion tank sealed system. Although another problem is the the expansion tank is too small, I digress.
I am not sure what heat exchangers you are referring to.
At the end of the day we went onto government websites to specifically look for MCS and NAPIT accredited installers locally (like to keep things local) and had faith in that accreditation system and therefore in the installers. What we have learnt is that it doesn't really count for anything how accredited a company is they can still be Cowboys. I know now why the installer was keen on 'helping us' fill in the RHI application.

 

[Doing it for the kids]

IMO - in my opinion

A heat exchanger basically lets 2 separate supplies of water mix heat. On my system I have them between house and boiler so the house circuit stays separate. They have 4 pipes going in and can be the size of a shoe box up to a kitchen unit.

If you Post some pics I am sure folk on here will help you id parts of the system.

I don't know how but you need to get hold of a copy of what was submitted to OFGEM

 

[Still Farming]

IMO - in my opinion

A heat exchanger basically lets 2 separate supplies of water mix heat. On my system I have them between house and boiler so the house circuit stays separate. They have 4 pipes going in and can be the size of a shoe box up to a kitchen unit.

If you Post some pics I am sure folk on here will help you id parts of the system.

I don't know how but you need to get hold of a copy of what was submitted to OFGEM

Sorry IMR -Independant meter or metering reports-this is a condition of the rhi scheme?they may have done it them selves???-on your application records there should be this along with tallying approved meters and sensors photo's and id records.
If you rhi and i guess you say you do when you log in the drop down tabs will show any agreements signed and online records -that's what YOU have agreed to so check it asap is best .
These so called local installers are they still trading ?
Did you see any other works they works they did ?
Has anyone else they did simular works for got or had trouble ???
It is complex and if you haven't done any system works or research or Ofgem involvements with it with the rhi then you'll have a shock as lot to it ?
If we all on here can help we will try our best !

 

[Happiness]

Will get some stuff uploaded from RHI application soon. We have the tier 1 RHI but producing twice the amount of kW/h.
They are still trading. They have opened up a renewable energy 'school' and one of them has just won Swansea businesswomen of the year award for renewables. Lol. They have a bit invested in it and quite a few assets.
Thanks for your help.

 

[Bloders]

Sorry to hear of your situation. There must surely be some legal recourse over the situation?

I think the whole RHI program was poor (i am refrainign from using the word wrong)
we have a system, and I think it is as much to do with luck as judgement that our system works, and we are fairly happy with it.
However, many of the features of the system are down to what my brother and I specified, such as a buffer tank etc.
The system was instaleld skillfully - by that i mean the guys doing the work were extremely good.
BUT, each heating cycle we lost probably 100 litres of water as the accumulater they installed was not nig enough - i have fixed this by installing a large header tank myself.
No filtration system was fitted to the installtion - i bought a "industrial Magnaclean" and fitted it myself. Having cleaned it out a couple of times, i even have my doubts the boiler was flushed follwoing manucfcature.
No inhibitor was used, nor recomended. I have remedied this (used product discussed on this forum) and the they were not bothered either way if we installed a buffer tank or not! This is critical to how we wanted to use our system and they were aware of this.

I would recomend our system for its simplicity, but i have doubts about the employees abilities to spec a system correctly.

I also invited the supplier back and they were unable to help. Fortunately,our retrospective works were minimal and not too costly.

 

[Farfrae]

Will get some stuff uploaded from RHI application soon. We have the tier 1 RHI but producing twice the amount of kW/h.
They are still trading. They have opened up a renewable energy 'school' and one of them has just won Swansea businesswomen of the year award for renewables. Lol. They have a bit invested in it and quite a few assets.
Thanks for your help.

If it's the place I think it is, they also got quite a large grant from The Welsh Government. If I'm correct they have 2 companies one with Nil assets (and listed as "Proposal to Strike Off") and the other with under £40K of Net Assets

 

[Still Farming]

All systems are different.
I know the basics are simular but as said pipe sizes -runs-insulation-buffer tank size etc.etc are all critical ?
So many tried to get on "band wagon" but were not commercial plumbers .

 

[Doing it for the kids]

All systems are different.
I know the basics are simular but as said pipe sizes -runs-insulation-buffer tank size etc.etc are all critical ?
So many tried to get on "band wagon" but were not commercial plumbers .

Sorry to hear of your situation. There must surely be some legal recourse over the situation?

I think the whole RHI program was poor (i am refrainign from using the word wrong)
we have a system, and I think it is as much to do with luck as judgement that our system works, and we are fairly happy with it.
However, many of the features of the system are down to what my brother and I specified, such as a buffer tank etc.
The system was instaleld skillfully - by that i mean the guys doing the work were extremely good.
BUT, each heating cycle we lost probably 100 litres of water as the accumulater they installed was not nig enough - i have fixed this by installing a large header tank myself.
No filtration system was fitted to the installtion - i bought a "industrial Magnaclean" and fitted it myself. Having cleaned it out a couple of times, i even have my doubts the boiler was flushed follwoing manucfcature.
No inhibitor was used, nor recomended. I have remedied this (used product discussed on this forum) and the they were not bothered either way if we installed a buffer tank or not! This is critical to how we wanted to use our system and they were aware of this.

I would recomend our system for its simplicity, but i have doubts about the employees abilities to spec a system correctly.

I also invited the supplier back and they were unable to help. Fortunately,our retrospective works were minimal and not too costly.

You are both so right. Biomass plumbing is a lot more specialised than most folk think. I think due to the explosion of the RHI ever one with a tool box jumped in and made some big cock ups putting the end user in the Poo.

Some of the mistakes I have seen are daft - pipe leaves boiler in 3" and the first thing they do is step it down by half! Client then complains boiler is not performing.

Suppose it's like this in every industry, what can be done to stop it though?

 

[Bloders]

You are both so right. Biomass plumbing is a lot more specialised than most folk think. I think due to the explosion of the RHI ever one with a tool box jumped in and made some big cock ups putting the end user in the Poo.

Some of the mistakes I have seen are daft - pipe leaves boiler in 3" and the first thing they do is step it down by half! Client then complains boiler is not performing.

Suppose it's like this in every industry, what can be done to stop it though?

The company we used were going before RHI and are still going strong.
I think they were reasonable, but not "engineered" enough to get it exactly right. For example, too many times they said "you can do that if you want" but what they should have been saying is "we recomend this because" I remain satisfied (fortunately) with our system, but disapointed in them.

 

[Still Farming]

What power did/does the MCS scheme hold with this redress ?
If fitted early in the rhi scheme and boilers over certain size it did'nt need to be MCS accredited .
Lots of "bogus" reports rip off's too is/are there ?

 

[Happiness]

If it's the place I think it is, they also got quite a large grant from The Welsh Government. If I'm correct they have 2 companies one with Nil assets (and listed as "Proposal to Strike Off") and the other with under £40K of Net Assets

Yes they did. The company we were invoiced with is not the strike off one.