Wood biomass dodgy installer help/advice appreciated

Happiness

Member
this is an all too common problem that has started to rear up lately, we have seen quite a few bad systems. 3kw for hot water in a house sounds very low to me. The schematic for the application is laughable. I hope you eventually get a system that works correctly but i would chase them via your own solicitors for the compensation and loss of earnings etc.


OK, so we seem to be getting somewhere with NAPIT. The current system is a 40kw heating a 2100 litre buffer tank. What's anyone's thoughts on the below, baring in mind our heat demand for the properties is currently around 56kw/h not including heat loss? We are going to Clevedon to have a look at these boilers in the next week or so. Haven't replied to NAPITS email yet. We have asked them that we feel it would benefit all parties if NAPIT used a third party to look over the design of the new installation to make sure its correct this time but the response we get is essentially a no.
We have the feeling and advice that a 80kw boiler would be a better solution and that 3200 buffer store is a bit too small for a 60kw burner.We don't want to rock the boat at this stage and scare the installers off though so need to word things very carefully.

___
Please find the below feedback that I have received suppliers


“I have been trying to get a boiler that can be delivered in the next few weeks, I have spoken to several suppliers and the best option so far is


60kW Angus Super Wood Log Boiler


Here are some of the benefits of the Angus Super

- Typically 35% heavier than others in its range as they are manufactured with thicker boiler steel plate for increased wear resistance/life expectancy (our boiler has a 6mm inner and 4mm outer as opposed to 5mm inner and 3mm outer boiler steel plate).
- They have one of the highest heat efficiency ratings (92% as opposed to 85% standard) for a log gasification boiler allowing a longer burn cycle and reduced wood fuel consumption.
- Larger combustion chamber volume than others in its range allowing a larger wood fuel load.
- Larger log length from 500mm for 18kW to 1000mm Long for 80kW to 130kW.
- Ability to burn all types of wood and handle logs up to 10" Diameter.
- Handle feature to mechanically clean out any pitch in the heat exchanger tubes.
- Control panel can be altered as and when required to control the following;
- Regulate the temperature of the accumulator tanks
- Vary the temperature differential of the water in the boiler from that of the accumulator tank before switching to gasification mode.
- Alter the blow through interval for burning off the gases.
- Alter the blow through time for burning off the gases.
Lower flue gas temperatures (less than 160 degrees for 25/40/60/80kW) as the water jacket surrounds the combustion chamber not only from all 4 sides but the base of the boiler as well). Along with a high efficiency rating this helps a lower running temperature of the stainless steel flue.
- Regulate the speed of the self-modulating fan.
-
Wire a remote control so the control panel can be altered from another location.
-Antifreeze protection system. When the temperature decreases below 4 °C regulator the installation is protected against freezing by the automatic turning on of the pump.
-Overheating protection system. When the temperature rises to above 90 °C it will automatically turn the fan off and ensure the pump is kept turned on.
- Comfort facility system. The comfort system built into the regulator prevents against stone deposition within the pump rotor. The regulator automatically actuates the pump after the heating
season for about 30 seconds every 14 days. Operation of the pump in this mode is signalled by
flashing of the pump indicator light. The system begins to operate 1 minute after the regulator has switched on. Actuation of the pump in automatic mode causes re-counting of the 14-day period from the beginning.


All our log boilers are designed to burn softwood or hardwood between 15% and 20% moisture content.
It is advisable to use softwood for batch burning only or to use as a mix (maybe 15% maximum) with hardwood for creating an ember layer when running the boiler continuously where for large periods of the time the boiler is in slumber mode. Even if the softwood is below 20% moisture content it is not ideal to use full loading chambers of softwood and then run the boiler continuously in this situation. As the softwood is resinous you will have very low flue gas temperatures when the boiler is slumbering for long periods of time and this can lead to a build up of pitch inside the heat exchange tubes and on the inside of the flue. It is possible that the turbulators in the heat exchanges tubes can become jammed as shown by the fact that the heat exchanger cleaning handle will no longer move and the overall efficiency of the boiler will be detrimentally affected. Any treated wood (creosote, paint), MDF or chipboard should not be used in our log boilers due to the carcinogenic emissions.


Let me know if this would be suitable, we also need to install another 1000 litre buffer tank along side the existing buffer tank.”
Xxx have advised that they’ve located a UK Manufacturer in order to ensure that they have suitable customer care and a relatively quick turnaround.


Please let me know your thoughts and I will forward them onto xxxx, I will ideally need these via email so that we can document your feedback.


Kind Regards,
 

Half Pipe

Member
an 80kw boiler sounds more suitable for what you are trying todo, as even at your peak demand of 56kw, it has spare to charge the buffer tank for use when fuel has burned out.
but a 3000l tank doesn't have much kw capacity
it takes about 11.6kw to raise temperature of 1000l water by 10 degrees c.
so a 3000l tanks has capacity of about 35kw per 10degree of difference,
so if boiler heat full tank to 90c
and you allowed tank to drop to 40c before lighting boiler again in the morning for instance,
that would give you 175kw (35x5) reserve, but that's only 3 hours at your current 56kw demand.
if you have your boiler set at 90c, system will need mixer valve to bring water temp down to safer level and 40c is quite low to heat radiators or domestic hot water.
so temperature difference might be more like 50-75c , but that would half the reserve calculations above.
I'm not an expert, just got a kean interest in wood batch boilers,
hope what I am adding to this thread is of some help
 
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Still Farming

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
South Wales UK
Even a 150 kw boiler and 2500l acc.tank cools down fast when goes out.
Maybe as stated somewhere big pipes out and smaller back ?
Heat exchangers maybe need to be oversized too ?
Direct heating if possible is always hotter ?
@Happiness are you going or allowed as existing rhi to subsitute old for new boiler and stay eligible ?Or forego it all?
 

Happiness

Member
Even a 150 kw boiler and 2500l acc.tank cools down fast when goes out.
Maybe as stated somewhere big pipes out and smaller back ?
Heat exchangers maybe need to be oversized too ?
Direct heating if possible is always hotter ?
@Happiness are you going or allowed as existing rhi to subsitute old for new boiler and stay eligible ?Or forego it all?

That's a stressful hurdle we need to cross. As far as we know we will have to forgo the RHI tariff from 2015 as soon as the 40kw burner is removed. OFGEM have advised that we would need to put in a new application for any different sized boiler, irrespective of who is at fault. So, currently the tariff drop is 25% from our original tariff. Even getting more kW allowance on a bigger boiler I've worked out we will get slightly less RHI payment on our overall 'investment'. But hopefully the system will be fixed to run more efficiently and we won't be processing and burning so much wood. Unless I am missing something?
 

RhysT

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Swansea
We run an 80kw Eco Angus boiler for just over two years. Very pleased with it. Both years have hit tier 1 rhi quota but have burnt a huge amount of wood doing so.
 

Still Farming

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
South Wales UK
That's a stressful hurdle we need to cross. As far as we know we will have to forgo the RHI tariff from 2015 as soon as the 40kw burner is removed. OFGEM have advised that we would need to put in a new application for any different sized boiler, irrespective of who is at fault. So, currently the tariff drop is 25% from our original tariff. Even getting more kW allowance on a bigger boiler I've worked out we will get slightly less RHI payment on our overall 'investment'. But hopefully the system will be fixed to run more efficiently and we won't be processing and burning so much wood. Unless I am missing something?
Where's your heat meters positioned are these correct also ?
 

Still Farming

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
South Wales UK
Between the burner and the main buffer tank right next to it. I presume that is correct?
Hope so !
If you had an independant meter repot done ! it should have been checked and check list gone through -ie .on straight pipe length away ftom bends etc same bore -not narrower pipe-meter location-probes positioned and in correct locations etc.etc lots that report should say !
Is it only 1 meter and then heat loss calculations was it ?Or meters on buildings as well maybe ?
 

Half Pipe

Member
That's a stressful hurdle we need to cross. As far as we know we will have to forgo the RHI tariff from 2015 as soon as the 40kw burner is removed. OFGEM have advised that we would need to put in a new application for any different sized boiler, irrespective of who is at fault. So, currently the tariff drop is 25% from our original tariff. Even getting more kW allowance on a bigger boiler I've worked out we will get slightly less RHI payment on our overall 'investment'. But hopefully the system will be fixed to run more efficiently and we won't be processing and burning so much wood. Unless I am missing something?
would keeping current 40kw boiler and adding the 60kw next to it be an option, so you can keep tarrif for current boiler,
would mean hassle filling 2 boilers though.
as your current 40kw boiler has been registered for rhi, it not be worth much 2nd hand anway.
 

akaPABLO01

Member
Put another 40kW extension in on new rhi keeping existing rhi with heat meter

Although, not sure if this will work with water share transfer. I think you can only extend on shared air heat??
 

Still Farming

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
South Wales UK
Put another 40kW extension in on new rhi keeping existing rhi with heat meter

Although, not sure if this will work with water share transfer. I think you can only extend on shared air heat??
If more heat exchangers used maybe existing stay same and new boiler new rhi claim in cottage existing pipework intergrating with heat exchangers ? Idea and cheapest and hotter ? Job to know !
 

Happiness

Member
If more heat exchangers used maybe existing stay same and new boiler new rhi claim in cottage existing pipework intergrating with heat exchangers ? Idea and cheapest and hotter ? Job to know !
Potential doom. Just found out from OFGEM that as per their policy the entire system needs to be 'new'. Didn't know this. Might be a problem, might not be. aaarghh!
 
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akaPABLO01

Member
It's only going to go one way, they will ask you to cancel the application.

You need to see a solicitor with a view to getting your money back.
 
Hi
Just wanted to add my thoughts - I've a 75kw boiler and 9000 litre accumulation tank. With very good wood (20% wet) and burning all day about 2 barrowfuls of wood I get the tank to 80 degrees which rapidly depletes to 50degrees overnight on just warming one property. The problem I have found even with a larger installation is that the water is recircing back to the accumulation tank almost immediately, which brings the temperature of the tank down dramatically. At the moment, I am burning wet wood as I've run out now, just haven't been able to get enough cut and seasoned this year, and Im only getting the accumulator tank to 60degrees, which when I switch the heating on at pm INSTANTLY drops to 40 degrees, and then by 11pm its getting cold in the house. The pumping of the cold spent water back into the accumulator tank is the issue, which apparently can be solved by a switch to stop it (that's the latest discussion I need to have with some other biomass company). Basically, Im not sure you want to be going with a bigger boiler or bigger accumulator as in my view the boiler might get the tank up to heat quicker, but the tank still drops in temperature and quickly. That's where Im at at the moment - to be brutal Im so close to spending another 1k and bunging a oil boiler in the system to heat the water when I can't be ar%ed with the wood, it's just too much and takes so much time each day to load the boiler and manage the wood. This summer Im going to ram the shed full of wood and season it, so I wont run out of wood next winter, but I did have at least 10 tons in there for this Winter, which I thought was going to be enough, stupid me.. Or stupid installer who somehow neglected to give me some indication of the amount of wood I was going to need :) If he had I would have run for the hills...
 

Still Farming

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
South Wales UK
Hi
Just wanted to add my thoughts - I've a 75kw boiler and 9000 litre accumulation tank. With very good wood (20% wet) and burning all day about 2 barrowfuls of wood I get the tank to 80 degrees which rapidly depletes to 50degrees overnight on just warming one property. The problem I have found even with a larger installation is that the water is recircing back to the accumulation tank almost immediately, which brings the temperature of the tank down dramatically. At the moment, I am burning wet wood as I've run out now, just haven't been able to get enough cut and seasoned this year, and Im only getting the accumulator tank to 60degrees, which when I switch the heating on at pm INSTANTLY drops to 40 degrees, and then by 11pm its getting cold in the house. The pumping of the cold spent water back into the accumulator tank is the issue, which apparently can be solved by a switch to stop it (that's the latest discussion I need to have with some other biomass company). Basically, Im not sure you want to be going with a bigger boiler or bigger accumulator as in my view the boiler might get the tank up to heat quicker, but the tank still drops in temperature and quickly. That's where Im at at the moment - to be brutal Im so close to spending another 1k and bunging a oil boiler in the system to heat the water when I can't be ar%ed with the wood, it's just too much and takes so much time each day to load the boiler and manage the wood. This summer Im going to ram the shed full of wood and season it, so I wont run out of wood next winter, but I did have at least 10 tons in there for this Winter, which I thought was going to be enough, stupid me.. Or stupid installer who somehow neglected to give me some indication of the amount of wood I was going to need :) If he had I would have run for the hills...
I think there could be issues with return pipe sizes -heat exchangers if got any and temp.sensors and pumps .
This must be a common problem maybe ?
The systems are commissioned and all "seems"ok up and running BUT Think these thing's need tuning !!!!
Also all systems "seem" different and "seem" the same in ways ?
Bigger boilers - smaller acc.tanks or Smaller heaters and bigger acc.tanks or ANY combination mix ?
They got to be a General consensus to basic guildline's and good practise !
 
agree completely, there's got to be a general consensus on basic guidelines and good practise as you say, but this biomass industry is a maverick, and the regulations as they are weigh heavy in their favour, what with the Government needing to reach RHI targets they are turning a blind eye to the long term affect - I am thinking there needs to be a class action where a group of disattisfied consumers get together and lobby the MP to get it sorted..

I've got my RHI now, but it was a roller coaster, and the returns are not meeting the suggested figures given by the supplier. They were forecasting a rebate of 7k per annum, well my 1st year last year I was rebated £1200 - after not getting anywhere near the 98kw i was said to need to burn which currently would mean me burning 114 tons of wood, Ive not got the wood handling facilities to cope with that, or the mental stability to cope with the mindless chopping of wood and lumping it to the beast to feed it - i think there's a few of us out there who must think why?
 

Bloders

Member
Location
Ruabon
the buffer tank temp can only reduce if the return water temp is lower.
the return water temp is lower for ONLY one of two reasons. 1) there is poor insulation, so the heat is leaking to its' surroundings, or 2) the heat is being used by the property.
The energy of the hot water is going somewhere.

If your heat meter is anything like ours, it will give you water temp in, water temp out, flow rate and heat consumption.

We have a buffer tank of about 12000litres.
overnight, temp will drop from about 70 to 60 degrees,
heat consumption is between 10 to 15 KW depending on conditions.

you can then calculate losses etc with reasonable accuracy, which I will probably do for a better understanding of the system

i dont know your boiler type, but when its not lit, is the water still circulating through it? If so, turning the circulation water through the boiler will make a big difference, as when it has no fuel, it is in effect a radiator in reverse.
 
Thanks Bloders - the bioler isn't circulating water through it when idle or flashing 'fuel' - it doesn't start to circulate water until it hits 53degrees on the boiler then it starts to return the heated water to the tank (according to the supplier). Its another smaller bone of contention I have, why wait when the boiler is active for it to get to 53 degrees as there's some useful heat then which could be returned to the tank - it's a tiny niggle, not worth worrying about for now, as I've got much bigger concerns as have others on this thread
 

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