Wood biomass dodgy installer help/advice appreciated

[Happiness]

Hi
Just wanted to add my thoughts - I've a 75kw boiler and 9000 litre accumulation tank. With very good wood (20% wet) and burning all day about 2 barrowfuls of wood I get the tank to 80 degrees which rapidly depletes to 50degrees overnight on just warming one property. The problem I have found even with a larger installation is that the water is recircing back to the accumulation tank almost immediately, which brings the temperature of the tank down dramatically. At the moment, I am burning wet wood as I've run out now, just haven't been able to get enough cut and seasoned this year, and Im only getting the accumulator tank to 60degrees, which when I switch the heating on at pm INSTANTLY drops to 40 degrees, and then by 11pm its getting cold in the house. The pumping of the cold spent water back into the accumulator tank is the issue, which apparently can be solved by a switch to stop it (that's the latest discussion I need to have with some other biomass company). Basically, Im not sure you want to be going with a bigger boiler or bigger accumulator as in my view the boiler might get the tank up to heat quicker, but the tank still drops in temperature and quickly. That's where Im at at the moment - to be brutal Im so close to spending another 1k and bunging a oil boiler in the system to heat the water when I can't be ar%ed with the wood, it's just too much and takes so much time each day to load the boiler and manage the wood. This summer Im going to ram the shed full of wood and season it, so I wont run out of wood next winter, but I did have at least 10 tons in there for this Winter, which I thought was going to be enough, stupid me.. Or stupid installer who somehow neglected to give me some indication of the amount of wood I was going to need If he had I would have run for the hills...

Hello welshfarmer. I did try ringing you the other day was earlier in the afternoon so you were probably busy (filling the burner I expect) We are in the middle of trying to sort it all out. If we have any success, will be in touch to see if our experience could help you. I'd definitely be up for getting together with others to highlight our experiences of the industry to an MP or something. Things we have learnt so far and low cost things we would advise to do in order of action;
- if you aren't having any sense from the installer stop taking their advice, go above their head to
- the manufacturer of the boiler. Ask them whats going on, they can often help, or can reccomend someone that can;
- get another opinion of the system from another installer. Say you have a system you aren't happy with and ask them what they could do to put it right and how much it would cost, they will normally provide this for free as they are essentially quoting for work. Keep all this info because you can use it to now go armed to;
- Any of the regulatory bodies they are members of, HETAS / NAPIT etc say you aren't happy, they should send out their own engineers and should check everything from your paperwork and contract to the installation itself. This way if your current installer wants to continue doing what they're doing they will have to put right.

This is where we are at now. If we had money we would just get another installer to put it right, or pull it all out and put oil back in or something.

 

[Bernt]

@welshfarming , it sounds like there is certainly isues with your system, whether its undersized pipework, or not set up correctly.

 

[Bloders]

Hi
Just wanted to add my thoughts - I've a 75kw boiler and 9000 litre accumulation tank. With very good wood (20% wet) and burning all day about 2 barrowfuls of wood I get the tank to 80 degrees which rapidly depletes to 50degrees overnight on just warming one property. The problem I have found even with a larger installation is that the water is recircing back to the accumulation tank almost immediately, which brings the temperature of the tank down dramatically. At the moment, I am burning wet wood as I've run out now, just haven't been able to get enough cut and seasoned this year, and Im only getting the accumulator tank to 60degrees, which when I switch the heating on at pm INSTANTLY drops to 40 degrees, and then by 11pm its getting cold in the house. The pumping of the cold spent water back into the accumulator tank is the issue, which apparently can be solved by a switch to stop it (that's the latest discussion I need to have with some other biomass company). Basically, Im not sure you want to be going with a bigger boiler or bigger accumulator as in my view the boiler might get the tank up to heat quicker, but the tank still drops in temperature and quickly. That's where Im at at the moment - to be brutal Im so close to spending another 1k and bunging a oil boiler in the system to heat the water when I can't be ar%ed with the wood, it's just too much and takes so much time each day to load the boiler and manage the wood. This summer Im going to ram the shed full of wood and season it, so I wont run out of wood next winter, but I did have at least 10 tons in there for this Winter, which I thought was going to be enough, stupid me.. Or stupid installer who somehow neglected to give me some indication of the amount of wood I was going to need If he had I would have run for the hills...

Im not sure if this helps or not, but putting some numbers into your system.
specific heat capacity of water is 4.71 Kj/KgK.
Assuming density is 1, so you have an accumulator tank which holds 9000Kg of water
therfore, considering the temp drop of water overnight,
9000*(80-50)*4.71 = 1271700 Kj of energy lost from the tank.
to get this to KWhr (Kilowat Hours) divide by 3600
= 353.25 Kwhr.
Now. where is your heat meter?
if its next to the house, what is the heat draw off? if you assume that the temp drop "overnight" is over ten hours, thats a constant demand of circa 35kw. (seems a lot to me, would be like a35KW oil fired boiler, or a 120,000 BTU boiler running at max output for the ten hours)
what have you replaced teh biomass with? if it was an oil boiler, what was its output, and how hard was it working, and is the house a similar temp to what it was?

also, worth a sense check on the energy going in.
Calorific value of dry wood is circa 15000 Kj/Kg.
on the most simplistic way of looking at it, to heat your tank from 50 to 80 degrees, assuming no lossess would require
1271700/15000 = 85kg of wood.

from the above, i would consider you have a efficient boiler, but a lot of heat loss out of the buffer tank somewhere.

As ive done these calcs, ive done them for our system, concluding we have little heat loss from the system, but an inefficient boiler!

Im no biomass expert but i dont understand what can happen to the cold return water if it doesnt go into the buffer tank?

i hope this angle of looking at it may help someone.

 

[Dave645]

It's not nice hearing fellow farmers having all these troubles, but I have a few questions.
1. You have a long feed pipe how well was it insulated and what with. (It matters the what with part)
2. Does your system have a meter to monitor what heat your generating?
3. If the answer too 2 is no then the way to improve your return is to increase your energy efficiency, insulate, insulate.

4. If you need I think this was your quote.
 Main Dwelling – Space Heating 24.56kW – Hot Water 3.0kW – Total 27.56kW 
Cottage 1 / cottage2 Conversion – Space Heating 21.74kW – Hot Water 3.0kW – Total 24.74kW
Total over 70kw max demand, by my reckoning, you either need a big buffer or a big controlled boiler (must be well over required) if you need 70kw demand the only heat entering the buffer is the not needed heat .....10kw from a 80kw max boiler, and the other note is that, 80kw is the max that means it can be less.....in my opinion you should be looking at over 80kw and a far bigger buffer maybe 10x the size all very big money.
that can be set to burn as demand requires I mean big one that can adjust its output to demand, so slow down its burn when in low demand.
This is where it's starting to look like it's going to cost you far more to fit a system that's what you actually needed that the original budget could fit, was well under actual needed. See notes at end.


5. Have you considered fitting your house with an additional stove
http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Walltherm-Stoves.html Or something else that's approved. Or the cottages.

6. Moving your current system to run the 2 cottages do away with the long out door run build a small building to fit it all in.
Keep the current rhi. Get a new assessment that works in your favour.
Then install a new separate system for your house.

Another option is run your house on the current and fit a new system just for the cottages, the advantage to that is when you have the cottages empty you don't need to fire the boiler up.
I actual thing the boiler that's fitted now is only just capable of heating the cottages....

I suppose the final option is make the current system just for your house it will more than cope.
Then fit air our ground source heat pumps for the cottages lose the external run.

I think before you make any changes you really need to get advise from a good installer, by that someone that actually knows what they are doing buffers are ok but they add heat loses so increase the amount of heat you need. I actually think if you got it all fixed it will cost you more as it would have done if it was done right the first time and your going to be burning massive amounts of wood.

Notes.
I agee with an earlier poster put air source heat pumps in for the cottages, just move your system to run just your house. As this will mean no chasing for massive amounts of fuel, but you can use your own wood supply for your selves.
I have a ground source heat pump which is great my rhi payments covers more than my running costs to the tune of around 60% over running.
Air source are less efficient but cheaper to put in so the choice is yours.

These installed mine I talked to a lot of people he just new his stuff and did a great job for me. If you want to look at heat pumps. I cannot recommend them higher.
http://www.jknrenewables.co.uk/

 

[Dave645]

Im not sure if this helps or not, but putting some numbers into your system.
specific heat capacity of water is 4.71 Kj/KgK.
Assuming density is 1, so you have an accumulator tank which holds 9000Kg of water
therfore, considering the temp drop of water overnight,
9000*(80-50)*4.71 = 1271700 Kj of energy lost from the tank.
to get this to KWhr (Kilowat Hours) divide by 3600
= 353.25 Kwhr.
Now. where is your heat meter?
if its next to the house, what is the heat draw off? if you assume that the temp drop "overnight" is over ten hours, thats a constant demand of circa 35kw. (seems a lot to me, would be like a35KW oil fired boiler, or a 120,000 BTU boiler running at max output for the ten hours)
what have you replaced teh biomass with? if it was an oil boiler, what was its output, and how hard was it working, and is the house a similar temp to what it was?

also, worth a sense check on the energy going in.
Calorific value of dry wood is circa 15000 Kj/Kg.
on the most simplistic way of looking at it, to heat your tank from 50 to 80 degrees, assuming no lossess would require
1271700/15000 = 85kg of wood.

from the above, i would consider you have a efficient boiler, but a lot of heat loss out of the buffer tank somewhere.

As ive done these calcs, ive done them for our system, concluding we have little heat loss from the system, but an inefficient boiler!

Im no biomass expert but i dont understand what can happen to the cold return water if it doesnt go into the buffer tank?

i hope this angle of looking at it may help someone.

I Agee with this big buffers equal big heat loses, the problem is big tanks don't often get sat in well insulated spaces, for max efficiency, you need balanced flue's so you can go air tight so no losses from drafts, and well insulated plant rooms to retain as much heat as possible from pipes and tanks, my plant room is actual in my house so the heat loses heat my house so they aren't loses at all.....
I would note that with any system running costs are also covering heat loses so insulate and air tighten (air heat losses are the greatest loss)
If possible fit a heat recovery system, and enjoy fresh warm air.
My house in new build it has a 10kw heat pump and it's 250m2 and the pump only runs about 4hrs a day in winter, I think the magic to my system was my heat recovery and my house is super air tight. It is also super insulated. But it was the heat recovery and air tightness that makes my house cheap to heat. As thermal loses in that area made much more diffrance than the super insulation, as insulation has diminishing returns.

The simplest explanation for heat recovery is it's retains 95% of the heat normally lost to required house ventilation. houses need ventilation it's a building regs requirement, and my house changes the entire volume of air in it every 2 hours, but I retain 95% of the heat. to put that in terms every 2 hours all the heat in the air in your house escapes, but with heat recovery only 5% does.

 

[Still Farming]

What's the latest @Happiness with your set up ?

 

[Happiness]

Took to long to pull their finger out and they have been sanctioned. Don't know if they are going to put it right yet. All still ongoing. Nightmare.

 

[Still Farming]

They go bang and start again most prob. ?

 

[f0ster]

it sounds like you have a log boiler? these do require a lot of manual labour to keep them working.

 

[Marky-mark7810]

Does anyone know what the minimum reccomeneded water tank to kw is? We are looking at a 260kw boiler what is the minimum tank we could get away with??? It is going to power 2 50kw fans in a biulding and 100kw heat exchanger to blow into a drying trailer

 

[Doing it for the kids]

25 - 30,000

mine is 195kw and have a 22500 litre tank. I wouldn't go much less that that ratio if you want to be able to leave it drying over night. the bigger the battery the longer you can leave it between fills.

 

[Half Pipe]

What type of boiler?

is it a chip/pellet auto filled or batch boiler that is manually or forklift loaded?
this will affect the tank'battery' requirement.

 

[Doing it for the kids]

^^^^ good point. I assumed batch boiler

 

[Happiness]

To give an update on our situation in case anyone reading this benefits from our experience and also to get advice from any similar experiences. The company that installed our biomass has been struck off MCS. They haven't done a thing to redress the issues with the system. RECCS are also aware of the 2 company directors so will cause problems for them to get MCS accreditation with their new company which operates from the same address doing the same sorts of things.
We sought legal advice and we have been told that whilst we have a clearcut case for breach of contract, the chance of success (getting back the monies owed) are low, due to their filing of company accounts showing profits of around 30k for the previous financial year, so our insurers won't take it on.
We are still in contact with the company and they are playing evasive tactic. Not outright telling us they won't fix things, but at the same time advising us they are 'closing the company down'. They have creditors of Barclay's and The Welsh government on their accounts so not sure how easy or how long it would take for them to do wind this Ltd company up. There is a new company they set up just after they entered into contract with us which operates from the same address (also their home). It is a CIC company (community interest company). This company was opened up by an MP and there was positive media surrouunding its opening.
Also at around about the same time as doing this they dissolved another company down (also operating from the same address).
Now, we have come to accept that we are unlikely to get any financial redress from these people as contract law does offer immoral amounts of protection to those that do not have good intentions. However, there may be some justice by sharing our experience with others and we would like to do something that may prevent them from doing this to another small family business.
I was thinking along the lines of informing companies house and writing letters to government including the MP that supported them. Any advice on things that we can do is greatly appreciated. They are in receipt of public money in the form of grants and loans and now claim to be a community interest company. It would feel very wrong to let this lie.

 

[welshfarming]

This is something that we've all been expecting for a while, and makes very uncomfortable reading. I think in the end the best way to get redress is to form a group of dissatisfied customers and take this as a 'class action' to the High Court, but I am afraid I am not convinced even this will work, as in the end the Government will defend their own, and will protect the supplier(s) with the 'immoral amount of protection' because the Goverment is complicit in allowing this to happen, and has allowed the renewables target to overrule any checks on quality installation and good practise. The ombudsman is also complicit in my view, as they will find in favour of the corrupt supplier, as they did in my case. The whole thing is the same as PPI, or Grenfell, where there are a number of people who should pay for this, but won't as they will be protected by the law, and by us not being able to afford a decent legal team to take this all the way through. I am more than happy to add my name to the list of those dissatisfied customers who want to persue this, as we all have a few different suppliers that should be made to pay for this.

 

[Happiness]

This is something that we've all been expecting for a while, and makes very uncomfortable reading. I think in the end the best way to get redress is to form a group of dissatisfied customers and take this as a 'class action' to the High Court, but I am afraid I am not convinced even this will work, as in the end the Government will defend their own, and will protect the supplier(s) with the 'immoral amount of protection' because the Goverment is complicit in allowing this to happen, and has allowed the renewables target to overrule any checks on quality installation and good practise. The ombudsman is also complicit in my view, as they will find in favour of the corrupt supplier, as they did in my case. The whole thing is the same as PPI, or Grenfell, where there are a number of people who should pay for this, but won't as they will be protected by the law, and by us not being able to afford a decent legal team to take this all the way through. I am more than happy to add my name to the list of those dissatisfied customers who want to persue this, as we all have a few different suppliers that should be made to pay for this.

I would like to do something. Several heads better than one. Thinking of writing to welsh government and the Carmarthenshire MP who opened up their 'pheonix company'. Do need help though as don't want to end up with libel case or something.
Open to suggestions to take things forward.

 

[Happiness]

To add. The ombudsman you are referring to is that the Renewable energy consumer code (RECC). They won't even look into our issue as the supplier did not renew their membership.

 

[welshfarming]

loopholes - when you look at the stats that RECC provide is all about how many 'successful' implementations, so they can show targets are being met, which is where the focus is wrong as there's no audit of these by a independent to check all's well. If we had someone authorised as an independent to check the installataions afterwards then it would open up this can of worms for the Government to see what a mess it is.
Absolutely do write to the Carmarthenshire MP, as that is what they are there for. Im more than happy to add my name to the letter with you, and would happily visit the MP to discuss in person, as I really feel the same, something has to be done. I notice my suppliers website has now changed massively to remove the references to how much profit there was supposed to be available in the scheme.
So I suspect the best is a letter outlining the position, with perhaps some example, and then a request to meet at his/her surgery. I will come along if you would like.

 

[Happiness]

loopholes - when you look at the stats that RECC provide is all about how many 'successful' implementations, so they can show targets are being met, which is where the focus is wrong as there's no audit of these by a independent to check all's well. If we had someone authorised as an independent to check the installataions afterwards then it would open up this can of worms for the Government to see what a mess it is.
Absolutely do write to the Carmarthenshire MP, as that is what they are there for. Im more than happy to add my name to the letter with you, and would happily visit the MP to discuss in person, as I really feel the same, something has to be done. I notice my suppliers website has now changed massively to remove the references to how much profit there was supposed to be available in the scheme.
So I suspect the best is a letter outlining the position, with perhaps some example, and then a request to meet at his/her surgery. I will come along if you would like.

Thank you. This sounds positive. We are going to Citizens advice in Cardigan tomorrow. I will see if there is any kind of help or assistance we could get. Probably not but worth a go. I will then be in touch to discuss a possible plan?

 

[welshfarming]

I think Citizens Advice is a good idea, but I'm very happy to help in discussing a possible plan, and comfortable with talking to the local MP, as if we are sincere and have a genuine grievance, they will help.