WTF has happened in Scotland?

[Danllan]

Hope we are all familiar with the SNP's ongoing campaign against freedom of speech, best exemplified by the conviction of a man who trained a pug to do a Nazi salute - this was an obvious joke and during the trial the utter f^ckwit of a Judge said that context did not matter if it was offensive... (see below)

Now another fellow has been arrested and charged in Scotland because he posted something on Twitter that was offensive about Captain Sir Tom Moore, that's right, he posted something 'offensive'... this is madness and the thin end of a rather frightening wedge.



Man who taught dog Nazi salute found guilty of hate crime - YouTube

And the best response to the stupid conviction so far...

It's a JOKE! - YouTube

 

[milkloss]

Rowan Atkinson has been doing some good work regarding free speech.

I reckon the way the States has gone all leftie will bleed over the water and will get much worse.

 

[M-J-G]

It's bulls**t, the dog wasn't even close to making a Nazi salute.
The only thing that doofus needs jailed for is looking the way he does!

I assume the other part of the OP is referring to the bigoted scumbag who made remarks celebrating the death of Sir Tom because he hates British soldiers. It did make me angry.

Social media combined with peoples craving to be a hero on the mini screen will be the downfall of society, I say this because if someone for example said that about Sir Tom in a public place they'd most likely get knocked out, but the protection of SM allows people to do and say anything with no consequences.
I'm not saying change the law on free speech, but people need to stop saying as much stupid sh!t on social media because it seems folks have lost the ability to engage their brain and to identify when to shut the f*#k up.

 

[Danllan]

It's bullpoo, the dog wasn't even close to making a Nazi salute.
The only thing that doofus needs jailed for is looking the way he does!

I assume the other part of the OP is referring to the bigoted scumbag who made remarks celebrating the death of Sir Tom because he hates British soldiers. It did make me angry.

Social media combined with peoples craving to be a hero on the mini screen will be the downfall of society, I say this because if someone for example said that about Sir Tom in a public place they'd most likely get knocked out, but the protection of SM allows people to do and say anything with no consequences.
I'm not saying change the law on free speech, but people need to stop saying as much stupid sh!t on social media because it seems folks have lost the ability to engage their brain and to identify when to shut the f*#k up.

Can't disagree with your sentiments about the idiot in question, very unpleasant and very stupid. But he just posted something 'offensive'... that shouldn't be criminalised, it's the sort of thing that dictators do.

The precedent set by the first case has, unsurprisingly, been used since. It is a stupid and irrational one, it doesn't ensure objectivity in the application of the law, something which is at the very heart of the 'rule of law'. It enshrined a principle by which one's actions or mere words need not be judged in context or with regard to intent.

I am staggered that the Faculty of Advocates has not been up in arms about the whole thing, but no, other than a few mutterings, nothing, disgraceful. It is a cliche I know, but as John Stuart Mill s aid 'Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing...'

I genuinely loathe and dislike Nicola Sturgeon, I think she is utterly dishonest, incompetent and has made an appalling mess of much of Scotland's national services, and I genuinely find her perpetual hypocrisy, carping and attacks on the Union offensive.

But her offending me doesn't mean she should be gaoled because, short of incitement to commit crimes, she has a right to speak her mind; and the same should apply to everyone else. Being occasionally offended is part of the price we pay for freedom of expression, and I think it a cheap one.

 

[Highland Mule]

Dan, not even remotely clued up on the legal side of things but if these comments had been vocalised would they have potential for breach of the peace? I thought he test for that was along the lines of things that others could find distressing or the likes, but haven’t looked it up for a while.

I’m no fan of Nicola either, btw, but feel that aside from the independence issue (and provided she stays away from that), she’s been doing a decent enough job of the Covid thing. I’ve read a few Scottish posters on here write similar too, and some friends in chatting, so don’t think I’m alone in that view.

I’m also a fan of free speech, But recognise that rights come with responsibilities, hence my question above.

Edit: found it:

"conduct severe enough to cause alarm to ordinary people and threaten serious disturbance to the community"

 

[Breakthru]

Abusive posts should result in a warning from SM platform then second offence publication of name of individual and then choice of fiscal on whether to prosecute but with Australian type fines. I am anti BLM and will never take a knee however I think it is the height of stupidity for a Judge to say in the case of Ian Wright that the offender was a young man and let him off.
Anonymity should be removed from repeat offenders. Named and Shamed.
This wokie shove it down our throats method is creating a divide which is making more racism not less. Remember the most racist devisive people you can meet are coloured. Lots of them hate each other! I find it incredulous that adverts on TV now are full of coloured people when they represent a small part of our population. Has a negative effect on me but maybe they get them cheaper.

 

[Muck Spreader]

Dan, not even remotely clued up on the legal side of things but if these comments had been vocalised would they have potential for breach of the peace? I thought he test for that was along the lines of things that others could find distressing or the likes, but haven’t looked it up for a while.

I’m no fan of Nicola either, btw, but feel that aside from the independence issue (and provided she stays away from that), she’s been doing a decent enough job of the Covid thing. I’ve read a few Scottish posters on here write similar too, and some friends in chatting, so don’t think I’m alone in that view.

I’m also a fan of free speech, But recognise that rights come with responsibilities, hence my question above.

Edit: found it:

"conduct severe enough to cause alarm to ordinary people and threaten serious disturbance to the community"

It's pretty old news and I am not sure what it really has to do with Surgeon other than Dan's hatred for her.

 

[Danllan]

Dan, not even remotely clued up on the legal side of things but if these comments had been vocalised would they have potential for breach of the peace? I thought he test for that was along the lines of things that others could find distressing or the likes, but haven’t looked it up for a while.

I’m no fan of Nicola either, btw, but feel that aside from the independence issue (and provided she stays away from that), she’s been doing a decent enough job of the Covid thing. I’ve read a few Scottish posters on here write similar too, and some friends in chatting, so don’t think I’m alone in that view.

I’m also a fan of free speech, But recognise that rights come with responsibilities, hence my question above.

Edit: found it:

"conduct severe enough to cause alarm to ordinary people and threaten serious disturbance to the community"

Down here BOTP is a catch-all mostly anticipatory thing in Common Law - not Criminal - although it's tried to the Criminal standard. I know it's different in Scotland, but have no knowledge of the situation there beyond that.

The most important aspects to BOTP are that it is anticipatory and objective. You quoted the word 'ordinary', many Judges have tagged the word 'reasonable' to it as part of any test in a case. Like all good law - in best theory! - it has had to move with the time, so things that may have been likely to have subject to it a few decades or more ago would now not really be relevant. So an objective assessment of what would alarm an ordinary person has had to change.

The anticipatory part is the true catch-all, if anyone can convince a Court that he reasonably thought X, Y or Z would happen, he can get away with arresting someone (note that I wrote anyone, because it's open to all to arrest, not just the police).

It's pretty old news and I am not sure what it really has to do with Surgeon other than Dan's hatred for her.

No hate, I don't want her hurt, have her life ruined or wish any ill to her other than politically; but contempt and dislike certainly. There is an obvious difference.

The law isn't brand new, the case is.

 

[M-J-G]

Abusive posts should result in a warning from SM platform then second offence publication of name of individual and then choice of fiscal on whether to prosecute but with Australian type fines. I am anti BLM and will never take a knee however I think it is the height of stupidity for a Judge to say in the case of Ian Wright that the offender was a young man and let him off.
Anonymity should be removed from repeat offenders. Named and Shamed.
This wokie shove it down our throats method is creating a divide which is making more racism not less. Remember the most racist devisive people you can meet are coloured. Lots of them hate each other! I find it incredulous that adverts on TV now are full of coloured people when they represent a small part of our population. Has a negative effect on me but maybe they get them cheaper.

The BLM thing is just BS, we are all a bunch of nobodies, live with and stop trying to make a fuss about being different.
Am I to be offended because they have mostly black people who represent them?
Why aren't there and even number of white people heading up their group?

I'm told BBC were taking specifically how women are seeing negative effects on their lives more than men beause of their job types and career choices and this must be more balanced, this is BS too.

To these people I say, there are more men in jail, more men commit suicide, more men suffer from depression, more men have manual labour jobs, men die younger.
Are we to even these things out as well?

If I want to employ 2 people, and 10 people apply for the job.
9 of them are men, 1 a woman and no black people apply.
Am I supposed to employ 1 man and 1 woman just to make sure the outcome is equal, even though the chances of her being better than all 8 of the remaining guys is slim (8 to 1).
And what chance was there to employ a black person when none applied.
Yet is be classed as having a bias towards white men, which would be untrue, if a woman is more capable than a man she'd get the job but that doesn't change the fact that 90% of the applicants are white male.

People need to realise that equal opportunity and and equal outcome are not the same thing!

 

[Highland Mule]

I know it's different in Scotland, but have no knowledge of the situation there beyond that.

So you’re not familiar with Scots law, but feel the charge is unsound - yes? Could an argument not be made that both of these cases had the potential (strong potential) to inflame and enrage societal tensions, and hence “threaten serious disturbance in the community”? I can see how the latter case would, especially in the current tinderbox environment of Covid. FWIW, I’d lump west of Scotland football in the same category, but that’s an aside.

What was the soldier hating yob charged with anyway?

 

[M-J-G]

Down here BOTP is a catch-all mostly anticipatory thing in Common Law - not Criminal - although it's tried to the Criminal standard. I know it's different in Scotland, but have no knowledge of the situation there beyond that.

The most important aspects to BOTP are that it is anticipatory and objective. You quoted the word 'ordinary', many Judges have tagged the word 'reasonable' to it as part of any test in a case. Like all good law - in best theory! - it has had to move with the time, so things that may have been likely to have subject to it a few decades or more ago would now not really be relevant. So an objective assessment of what would alarm an ordinary person has had to change.

The anticipatory part is the true catch-all, if anyone can convince a Court that he reasonably thought X, Y or Z would happen, he can get away with arresting someone (note that I wrote anyone, because it's open to all to arrest, not just the police).



No hate, I don't want her hurt, have her life ruined or wish any ill to her other than politically; but contempt and dislike certainly. There is an obvious difference.

The law isn't brand new, the case is.

As I've said before, if NS (and in the past her predecessor Eck the molester) were to be replaced by someone who is easier to like the SNP could be unstoppable in Scotland.
Them being difficult to like stops a lot of people from following nationism.
Kate is appealing in several ways, if you put someone like her in the job it would help the SNP no end.

 

[Danllan]

So you’re not familiar with Scots law, but feel the charge is unsound - yes? Could an argument not be made that both of these cases had the potential (strong potential) to inflame and enrage societal tensions, and hence “threaten serious disturbance in the community”? I can see how the latter case would, especially in the current tinderbox environment of Covid. FWIW, I’d lump west of Scotland football in the same category, but that’s an aside.

What was the soldier hating yob charged with anyway?

I've a working knowledge of it and no more, but enough to argue the jurisprudence, much of which is shared here. The fact that you and others aren't rioting on the streets should indicate that the matter was unpleasant, stupid and pretty much irrelevant. Scotland has a long history of advocating and defending freedom of thought and speech, what has been achieved is eroding, fast.

He was charged with 'communication offences' with regard to an offensive tweet...

 

[Highland Mule]

The fact that you and others aren't rioting on the streets

We do most weekends anyway, but now have another reason to do so too - does that not count?

 

[Ashtree]

Gosh, I’m sensing more and more on here, and here presumably is a reflection of wider Britain, very deep sentiments of anger, frustration, disaffection, annoyance, impatience, distrust, dismay, etc, etc,.

Anything to do with Scotland or it’s freely elected representatives, brings out the absolute worst in so many posters on here.
Anything, anyone, or any sentiment, emanating even vaguely from the so called left side of the political spectrum, absolutely gets ganders up all over the shop. The whole gambit of insults are used to push back at these citizens of Britain. Insults like, libtard, wokey clown, etc, etc,...
Now of course I don’t even have to mention the EU .... phew.... it sure gets hot and bothered.
Last but not least of course N Ireland ..... let’s not go there.... untamed tribes internally, and of course the usual conservative / Brexiteer elements on here and in wider Britain, who speak simultaneously out of both sides of their mouths. NI they say is as British as Finchley, but in fact they can’t wait to kick it out permanently and slam the door behind it.

I’m really concerned for you all. All those angry and distrustful emotions, lead only to one landing zone....

Spit it out. It’s good to talk....

 

[Danllan]

Gosh, I’m sensing more and more on here, and here presumably is a reflection of wider Britain, very deep sentiments of anger, frustration, disaffection, annoyance, impatience, distrust, dismay, etc, etc,...

No, you're not; you're just trying to stir up trouble as usual.

Or, perhaps, more charitably, you are just transferring the very deep sentiments of anger, frustration, disaffection, annoyance, impatience, distrust, dismay, etc., etc. that you feel regarding CV-19 and your masters' failure to organise things properly...

 

[hoff135]

I know numerous fanatical Scottish nationalists. They want independence and want the snp yet they also hold views such as being strongly anti immigration and "dont want scotland ending up like england" yet go out and campaign and vote for a party that is hell bent on mass immigration. I cannot work out what they are thinking doing this

 

[Danllan]

I know numerous fanatical Scottish nationalists. They want independence and want the snp yet they also hold views such as being strongly anti immigration and "dont want scotland ending up like england" yet go out and campaign and vote for a party that is hell bent on mass immigration. I cannot work out what they are thinking doing this

Everyone Loves Scottish Nationalism ... Ooops - Leo Kearse - YouTube

 

[Muck Spreader]

I know numerous fanatical Scottish nationalists. They want independence and want the snp yet they also hold views such as being strongly anti immigration and "dont want scotland ending up like england" yet go out and campaign and vote for a party that is hell bent on mass immigration. I cannot work out what they are thinking doing this

Scotland needs skilled immigrants and to keep young progressive Scot's in Scotland. If it doesn't, it will just become one massive retirement home for the UK, with a economy based on Scottie dogs, tartan and shortbread.

 

[Muck Spreader]

As I've said before, if NS (and in the past her predecessor Eck the molester) were to be replaced by someone who is easier to like the SNP could be unstoppable in Scotland.
Them being difficult to like stops a lot of people from following nationism.
Kate is appealing in several ways, if you put someone like her in the job it would help the SNP no end.
View attachment 939829

She is easy on the eye but does that make her a good politician. I would argue that whilst Sturgeon is a marmite character she is probably the most able politician currently in the UK (I know it's a low bar!) and certainly will not compromise when fighting Scotland's corner.

 

[M-J-G]

She is easy on the eye but does that make her a good politician. I would argue that whilst Sturgeon is a marmite character she is probably the most able politician currently in the UK (I know it's a low bar!) and certainly will not compromise when fighting Scotland's corner.

Sturgeon is clever and that makes her hated by many of the opposition, there's nothing more frustrating for some than an intelligent opponent.

Kate's not daft, the fact that she's attractive is abonus.qheb it comes to general likeability.
She's just an example of what could replace Nicola, and since "Crankie" is the dominant insult, replace that with "that good looking bird" and the package becomes a lot more acceptable.

I'm just saying that removing NS may be a step forward for the SNP, so folks should be careful what they wish for.