WTO

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
Everyone knows the beauty of the Big Lie is its simplicity.

Like, for instance, that if the UK leaves the EU it could act as an ordinary WTO member.

The truth is more complicated. The UK isn’t a member of the WTO at present, in its own right; unpicking its association via the EU and its web of trade agreements is an adjustment that requires negotiation with its membership.

All 162 members. Yep, that’s right, 162. Every single one of which has a say. And a veto, because it only takes one objection to hold up the talks because the WTO operates by consensus, not voting - one reason why WTO negotiations take so long.

To put it politely, “recent negotiating experience suggests that willingness to accommodate each other’s interests quickly is a scarce commodity in the WTO and even a final agreement cannot be guaranteed“. [Peter Ungphakorn, former WTO Secretariat].

Re-establishing the UK’s WTO status in its own right means both the UK and the EU would negotiate simultaneously with the rest of the WTO’s members to extract their separate membership terms; the EU is bigger and more important, so they will get priority. Sorry about that, but it's the hard truth.

The UK will have to negotiate with the EU itself, the US, China, Russia, India, Brazil, and any trading nation or group of nations that matters, large or small, rich or poor. It would only take one objection to hold up the talks.

You can weigh this up for yourself, but it’s a lie that the UK can become an independent WTO member simply and quickly.
 

Ashtree

Member
Everyone knows the beauty of the Big Lie is its simplicity.

Like, for instance, that if the UK leaves the EU it could act as an ordinary WTO member.

The truth is more complicated. The UK isn’t a member of the WTO at present, in its own right; unpicking its association via the EU and its web of trade agreements is an adjustment that requires negotiation with its membership.

All 162 members. Yep, that’s right, 162. Every single one of which has a say. And a veto, because it only takes one objection to hold up the talks because the WTO operates by consensus, not voting - one reason why WTO negotiations take so long.

To put it politely, “recent negotiating experience suggests that willingness to accommodate each other’s interests quickly is a scarce commodity in the WTO and even a final agreement cannot be guaranteed“. [Peter Ungphakorn, former WTO Secretariat].

Re-establishing the UK’s WTO status in its own right means both the UK and the EU would negotiate simultaneously with the rest of the WTO’s members to extract their separate membership terms; the EU is bigger and more important, so they will get priority. Sorry about that, but it's the hard truth.

The UK will have to negotiate with the EU itself, the US, China, Russia, India, Brazil, and any trading nation or group of nations that matters, large or small, rich or poor. It would only take one objection to hold up the talks.

You can weigh this up for yourself, but it’s a lie that the UK can become an independent WTO member simply and quickly.


And here's the irony! Brexit is here because Britain just couldn't be arsed with the inconvenience of having to listen to, put up with and even allow 27 other countries have a say in stuff!! Architects of Brexit looked through rose tinted glasses to a time when Britain made rules and the dominions fell in line. If they didn't they got slapped about till they came to their senses.

WTO could make EU look like child's play!!
 

linga

Member
Location
Ceredigion
Everyone knows the beauty of the Big Lie is its simplicity.

Like, for instance, that if the UK leaves the EU it could act as an ordinary WTO member.

The truth is more complicated. The UK isn’t a member of the WTO at present, in its own right; unpicking its association via the EU and its web of trade agreements is an adjustment that requires negotiation with its membership.

All 162 members. Yep, that’s right, 162. Every single one of which has a say. And a veto, because it only takes one objection to hold up the talks because the WTO operates by consensus, not voting - one reason why WTO negotiations take so long.

To put it politely, “recent negotiating experience suggests that willingness to accommodate each other’s interests quickly is a scarce commodity in the WTO and even a final agreement cannot be guaranteed“. [Peter Ungphakorn, former WTO Secretariat].

Re-establishing the UK’s WTO status in its own right means both the UK and the EU would negotiate simultaneously with the rest of the WTO’s members to extract their separate membership terms; the EU is bigger and more important, so they will get priority. Sorry about that, but it's the hard truth.

The UK will have to negotiate with the EU itself, the US, China, Russia, India, Brazil, and any trading nation or group of nations that matters, large or small, rich or poor. It would only take one objection to hold up the talks.

You can weigh this up for yourself, but it’s a lie that the UK can become an independent WTO member simply and quickly.

I thought I would look to see if what you say is true and I found this..
The first thing that strikes me is that it clearly says that the UK is a member in its own right.
I havent read it all in detail though but I thought it worth posting.

https://www.instituteforgovernment....hings-know-about-world-trade-organization-wto
 
I have to ask @Walterp where are you getting this information from ?

What are your sources ?

It is fine putting forward your own opinion BUT from what I have seen there is too much information here, biased in it's nature and obvioulsy organised.

This is propaganda, where is it coming from ?
 

baabaa

Member
Location
co Antrim
And here's the irony! Brexit is here because Britain just couldn't be arsed with the inconvenience of having to listen to, put up with and even allow 27 other countries have a say in stuff!! Architects of Brexit looked through rose tinted glasses to a time when Britain made rules and the dominions fell in line. If they didn't they got slapped about till they came to their senses.

WTO could make EU look like child's play!!
exchange rate hurting ashy?
 

alex04w

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Co Antrim
What utter rubbish.

You say it will take only one objection to stall a new negotiation. You therefore conclude that someone will object to the UK but no one will object to the EU. What absolute biased thinking to try and advance your biased anti Brexit a d anti UK stance.

If the EU gives the UK a hard time, then it only takes the UK to object to stall the EU for decades.

Try to start talking some sense.
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
I thought I would look to see if what you say is true and I found this..
The first thing that strikes me is that it clearly says that the UK is a member in its own right.
I havent read it all in detail though but I thought it worth posting.

https://www.instituteforgovernment....hings-know-about-world-trade-organization-wto
I know that Brexiters hate complexity...

But the actuality is that the UK's membership is bundled up within the EU's membership, which leads to the problem over goods.

The other problem is that it don't cover services, our speciality subject.
 

Ashtree

Member
exchange rate hurting ashy?

General expectation is that weak sterling would have a severe negative knock on effect on beef and dairy prices in particular.

But you know Paddy is resilient if nothing else. We have gone out there and opened numerous new markets none of which are individually huge at the moment, but enough to spread the risk and create more competition for the processors when it comes to farm gate prices. USA and Turkey taking nice volumes now. We are in final stage of opening China with Chinese vets here next month for the last details. EU Japan trade deal will be very good for Irish beef and dairy! Very good!!

My July batch of weanling calves went out the gate at €0.15 more per kilo than last year for example.

So in short average Paddy Farmer is doing better this year than over the past few years.
Paddy Tillage Farmer not doing so well though I understand.


Resilience of Irish beef sector in the wake of Brexit noted at Beef Forum @agrilandIreland
http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news...or-in-the-wake-of-brexit-noted-at-beef-forum/
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
If I was as disaffected as you Walter, then I'd emigrate. Have you given this serious consideration?
Yes, I have.

I try to be fairly open-minded, and when I decided to go farming I considered France, NZ, the US, Canada and Tasmania. I chose the UK principally because, of the other five, I preferred the US (Missouri) or France (Limousin) and when I started to get serious it turned out that Julie had doubts for family reasons.

Looking back, I think she was wrong. She still thinks she was right, so I am sure I made the correct decision to buy in the UK because if your wife isn't 100% committed you won't have either the farm, or the wife, for long.

But I think I've persuaded Julie to go farming in France at the end of our current agri schemes in 2020.

Better late than never....
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
What utter rubbish.

You say it will take only one objection to stall a new negotiation. You therefore conclude that someone will object to the UK but no one will object to the EU. What absolute biased thinking to try and advance your biased anti Brexit a d anti UK stance.

If the EU gives the UK a hard time, then it only takes the UK to object to stall the EU for decades.

Try to start talking some sense.
The truth hurts, don't it just?
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
I have to ask @Walterp where are you getting this information from ?

What are your sources ?

It is fine putting forward your own opinion BUT from what I have seen there is too much information here, biased in it's nature and obvioulsy organised.

This is propaganda, where is it coming from ?
An intelligent question.

My neighbours (some of whom are TFF members) will vouch that I am a shy and retiring chap who doesn't get out much nowadays, now the local pub has closed down.

So I think, instead.

It's not always easy, but it's better than leaving someone else do it for you.
 

Ashtree

Member
Yes, I have.

I try to be fairly open-minded, and when I decided to go farming I considered France, NZ, the US, Canada and Tasmania. I chose the UK principally because, of the other five, I preferred the US (Missouri) or France (Limousin) and when I started to get serious it turned out that Julie had doubts for family reasons.

Looking back, I think she was wrong. She still thinks she was right, so I am sure I made the correct decision to buy in the UK because if your wife isn't 100% committed you won't have either the farm, or the wife, for long.

But I think I've persuaded Julie to go farming in France at the end of our current agri schemes in 2020.

Better late than never....

You won't be able to cope with the ever more regular heat waves over there!
Come to Ireland instead where we can assure you of a warm welcome and plenty rain.
Very nice farm locally here just went to a couple from England. Apparently they don't see the long term business logic of farming in a stand alone UK. Reckon UK farmers will get totally shafted in the up coming trade agreements between UK and USA etc,.
 

linga

Member
Location
Ceredigion
I know that Brexiters hate complexity...

But the actuality is that the UK's membership is bundled up within the EU's membership, which leads to the problem over goods.

The other problem is that it don't cover services, our speciality subject.

There is no doubt that wto rules have a complexity that my simple brexiteer mind wouldn't be able to grasp but it would seem that the UK aims to copy and paste the existing EU schedules and once these are agreed ( and why wouldn't they be )it can start trading even if these schedules have not been certified. The EU itself has not certified its schedules.
Mind you it's all above my head of course
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
There is no doubt that wto rules have a complexity that my simple brexiteer mind wouldn't be able to grasp but it would seem that the UK aims to copy and paste the existing EU schedules and once these are agreed ( and why wouldn't they be )it can start trading even if these schedules have not been certified. The EU itself has not certified its schedules.
Mind you it's all above my head of course
WTO complexity comes from the EU’s unusual situation: ‘the EU’ is actually 29 WTO members (28 sovereign states, plus the EU itself as a federal body) with WTO rights and obligations having been combined into one as a federal negotiator. It is what gives the EU bloc its strength (and, conversely, is an indicator of future UK weakness).

In the WTO, the EU has agreed to keep its import duties within certain limits. For example, the EU’s quotas are for the whole single market, not any individual country such as the UK. Limits on agricultural subsidies are also for the entire EU.

To be an independent WTO member, the UK would be creating its own rights and obligations out of the EU’s. That’s not as simple as it sounds. One reason is because other countries with different interests would want to ensure the balance is also right for them.

Take just one hard-fought issue: low-duty import quotas for high-quality beef, just two of almost 100 EU quotas. The EU opened these beef quotas after lengthy negotiations with Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, New Zealand, Paraguay, Uruguay, and the US.

Extracting UK beef quotas out of the EU’s would require negotiations with all of them, plus possibly other suppliers such as Botswana, India, and Namibia, and definitely the EU itself — Ireland, Germany and France have particularly strong beef lobbies.

While the exporting countries are pressing for the UK’s quota gates to be opened wider, and jostling with each other for paths through the opening, UK farmers would be pushing in the opposite direction.

Remember, to reach agreement, the WTO’s consensus rule would apply.
 
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czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
If I was as disaffected as you Walter, then I'd emigrate. Have you given this serious consideration?


Actually I wanted to ask Walt if his place in South Wales was actually for sale. And if so, if there is any serious interest?
In my own experience, I find in the last 2 years, land has gone from having folk fighting over it for 10k, to getting no interest whatsoever at 7k.
To actually get a buyer now, I wonder where the price has to be? 6, 5, maybe 3?
Gutted for my brother trying to sell a small farm but then he was a big fan of leave:banghead:
 

linga

Member
Location
Ceredigion
No doubt there are a host of problems and difficulties to be overcome as there always are but they usually are overcome. It just takes some positivity.
Of course Walterp started by stating that the UK was not a member of WTO and my link really was to simply show that the UK was. Was it just a slip of his pen or something more deliberate ?
 

Pond digger

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
East Yorkshire
Yes, I have.

I try to be fairly open-minded, and when I decided to go farming I considered France, NZ, the US, Canada and Tasmania. I chose the UK principally because, of the other five, I preferred the US (Missouri) or France (Limousin) and when I started to get serious it turned out that Julie had doubts for family reasons.

Looking back, I think she was wrong. She still thinks she was right, so I am sure I made the correct decision to buy in the UK because if your wife isn't 100% committed you won't have either the farm, or the wife, for long.

But I think I've persuaded Julie to go farming in France at the end of our current agri schemes in 2020.

Better late than never....

I'm sure you've done your homework, but the local politics in rural France would make me wary; don't upset the mayor!

Not that I'm an expert in such matters.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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