Yield drop when moving to direct drilling

Badshot

Member
Location
Kent
Is 1 ton per acre to much of a yield drop because that is where I am thinking it will be at the moment , but time will tell
What drill have you used?
I didn't see any yield drop in wheat going to a tine drill DD.
Osr, yes, around half a tonne drop, back to a deep, but narrow tine on wide spacings for that, and it's very much better for it.
Beans, better yield, both winter and springs.
Spring wheat, variable yield but can't say its any worse on avreage than previous.
My Linseed looks very promising so far only 16 days in looking fantastic with a gd.
 
What drill have you used?
I didn't see any yield drop in wheat going to a tine drill DD.
Osr, yes, around half a tonne drop, back to a deep, but narrow tine on wide spacings for that, and it's very much better for it.
Beans, better yield, both winter and springs.
Spring wheat, variable yield but can't say its any worse on avreage than previous.
My Linseed looks very promising so far only 16 days in looking fantastic with a gd.

Cross slot , field after turf on heavy clay struggled to close the slot ,
Field after beans you can see every where the combine went , and on both fields headlands are a bit to sparse for my liking
only seemed to like working straight , as soon as it drilled on the curve on headlands then it started putting 2 rows into 1
 

Badshot

Member
Location
Kent
Cross slot , field after turf on heavy clay struggled to close the slot ,
Field after beans you can see every where the combine went , and on both fields headlands are a bit to sparse for my liking
only seemed to like working straight , as soon as it drilled on the curve on headlands then it started putting 2 rows into 1
The two rows is common to most drills.
For what it's worth I'd definitely recommend getting a gd on demo, fraction of the weight, fraction of the hp required, and the angled slot does seem a massive step forward.
Only done Linseed so far, so early days but I can see it being better than a vertical slot
 

tw15

Member
Location
DORSET
Have found out also don't go down the route of low seed rates with dd in the first years sow a good rate may be 10 % more than normal , plenty of plants don't need to push for tillers so hard with n , seed is cheap compared to fert . Looking around over the last few days the boys that like to drill low seed rates their wheats do look like they are really blue with n but looking in to them they may be a bit short of tillers . What do I know I may be wrong but do as well as the barley barrons around here .
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
Have found out also don't go down the route of low seed rates with dd in the first years sow a good rate may be 10 % more than normal , plenty of plants don't need to push for tillers so hard with n , seed is cheap compared to fert . Looking around over the last few days the boys that like to drill low seed rates their wheats do look like they are really blue with n but looking in to them they may be a bit short of tillers . What do I know I may be wrong but do as well as the barley barrons around here .

I think you're right about seed rates. I had hoped that winter cereals would have long enough to tiller out but the lack of soil N mineralisation from cultivation does just what you describe. For spring cereals it's worse. IMO the only crop this wouldn't apply to is osr that branches out well enough by itself after spring N.

What do you no tillers think about seed rates @Andy Howard @Clive @martian @Simon Chiles @Simon C @Fish @Knockie ? No offence to those I've missed off the list! @juke @Badshot @farmingfred
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
Do half the farm dd and the other half your current way, weigh up the difference in yield and savings in fuel and time. If there is a slight yield drop but you’ve save 30k in fuel and labour but profits the same if not more it’s a winner. With the extra time you have you can diversify and make other income streams on farm. Work smarter, not harder.

That's the kind of positive, inquisitve attutude that makes the project work (y) Too many posters want no till to fail and seem to be betting that it will, trialling a field or two themselves just to prove the point.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Do half the farm dd and the other half your current way, weigh up the difference in yield and savings in fuel and time. If there is a slight yield drop but you’ve save 30k in fuel and labour but profits the same if not more it’s a winner. With the extra time you have you can diversify and make other income streams on farm. Work smarter, not harder.
Good attitude (y)
Even on pretty fresh soils like down here - I would say to (and do say to) people looking into DD to "NO till" - not bugger up the soil surface lightly and then drill

The way I say it to folk I know don't get offended by non PC items:
"If you came home from the pub twice a year and beat your partner up badly, then had a revelation it wasn't helping - do you think she would prefer you just gave her a few slaps, or actually just left her alone?"

Soil does not need beaten for best results, never did, and never will.
Soil is a precious and living thing, and a habitat; "tilth" and manmade structure can not be as good as what nature does, few things actually are as good as nature does it by herself.
It just takes time and understanding to get the forgiveness back IMO, soils have had a hell of a hiding due to misunderstanding and diesel engines.
 

tw15

Member
Location
DORSET
Fallieres happen in all types of establishment and people can get away and get into dd with good results on some soils quicker than on other soil types . What we all don't want is a crop to have to be redrilled .
For DD to work, you have to want it to work and maybe I'm wrong but it does need a bit more attention to detail . So far more than happy here its a big learning curve and very interesting .
 

Goodbeef

Member
Think part of the trouble with dd is that it just won’t work on some farms as there is veg and root crops in the rotation and they point out all its bad points! Yet as it’s been proved there are plenty of cases where it works very well if you want it to!

Who’s going to the groundswell event?
 

Simon C

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Essex Coast
I think you're right about seed rates. I had hoped that winter cereals would have long enough to tiller out but the lack of soil N mineralisation from cultivation does just what you describe. For spring cereals it's worse. IMO the only crop this wouldn't apply to is osr that branches out well enough by itself after spring N.

What do you no tillers think about seed rates @Andy Howard @Clive @martian @Simon Chiles @Simon C @Fish @Knockie ? No offence to those I've missed off the list! @juke @Badshot @farmingfred

Yes completely agree on needing more seed in no-till. Lack of minerarlised nutrients and relying on biological processes which don't start working until the soil has warmed enough in the spring means we get much less tillering than in a conventional system. We also don't get that lush early growth and so I haven't bothered with any growth regs for a few years now.

Before no-till, when it was the fashion for low seed rates, I was down to 250 seeds/m but rates have gradually gone up since, 450 last autumn and I still think there is scope to go to 500 next year.

Saving own seed and not using chemical dressings makes this affordable of course.
 

SimonD

Member
Location
Dorset
Think part of the trouble with dd is that it just won’t work on some farms as there is veg and root crops in the rotation and they point out all its bad points! Yet as it’s been proved there are plenty of cases where it works very well if you want it to!

Who’s going to the groundswell event?

Worth visiting, you’ll see and learn a great deal and meet some interesting people. Go and listen to some of the contributors here and Joel Williams, you’ll soon be convinced of the systems merits. Nobody knows everything but there’s a wealth of information out there to tap into.
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
I think you're right about seed rates. I had hoped that winter cereals would have long enough to tiller out but the lack of soil N mineralisation from cultivation does just what you describe. For spring cereals it's worse. IMO the only crop this wouldn't apply to is osr that branches out well enough by itself after spring N.

What do you no tillers think about seed rates @Andy Howard @Clive @martian @Simon Chiles @Simon C @Fish @Knockie ? No offence to those I've missed off the list! @juke @Badshot @farmingfred

What are you hoping to achieve by the higher seed rates? I’ve had thin crops yield well, there was a time we often were planting wheat at 70kg/ha. Thinking back to the old days when we swapped to dd we used to use 0-24-24 ( before we knew better ) so switched to 5-24-24 instead. I suspect that the 15 units of N in the autumn was the reason we never saw a dip in the first few years. Having said all that I certainly think higher seed rates are important if you have a black grass problem.
 
It seems I've started a bit of debate / flak ,,,,,, always feel like I'm walking into the lions den when I come onto this section of the forum :)
I've always had a interest in DD and had a interesting couple of years with the local soils group where we put on some trials at home which some of you saw on the old forum ,,,,, unfortunately being 2012 nothing good come of anything although it did teach me that in a perfect autumn establishment isn't always easy .
Jump to this year and with a 3 yr temp ley coming out on a field of Lias clay , having been to the field with a fork we realised that the clover had done a superb job of the soil structure ,,,,,, surely a good time to start looking into DD ing
 

Badshot

Member
Location
Kent
It seems I've started a bit of debate / flak ,,,,,, always feel like I'm walking into the lions den when I come onto this section of the forum :)
I've always had a interest in DD and had a interesting couple of years with the local soils group where we put on some trials at home which some of you saw on the old forum ,,,,, unfortunately being 2012 nothing good come of anything although it did teach me that in a perfect autumn establishment isn't always easy .
Jump to this year and with a 3 yr temp ley coming out on a field of Lias clay , having been to the field with a fork we realised that the clover had done a superb job of the soil structure ,,,,,, surely a good time to start looking into DD ing

Many years ago I DD Linseed into a sprayed off clover ley.
The clover only got checked by the glyphosate
The Linseed grew fine, massive understory of clover all season. Another dose of glyphosate pre harvest, again only checked the clover.
Yielded as per expectations. Was ok
Then went and ruined it all by ploughing it:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
 
Many years ago I DD Linseed into a sprayed off clover ley.
The clover only got checked by the glyphosate
The Linseed grew fine, massive understory of clover all season. Another dose of glyphosate pre harvest, again only checked the clover.
Yielded as per expectations. Was ok
Then went and ruined it all by ploughing it:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

That’s been my one big mistake this year , not DDing my linseed
 

Badshot

Member
Location
Kent
That’s been my one big mistake this year , not DDing my linseed
Mine is looking good so far.
But then so is my mates that was into v lightly cultivated ground with a KV tineseeder
Big difference is I have v low levels of bg, I expect to see lots in his when I go look next.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
What are you hoping to achieve by the higher seed rates? I’ve had thin crops yield well, there was a time we often were planting wheat at 70kg/ha. Thinking back to the old days when we swapped to dd we used to use 0-24-24 ( before we knew better ) so switched to 5-24-24 instead. I suspect that the 15 units of N in the autumn was the reason we never saw a dip in the first few years. Having said all that I certainly think higher seed rates are important if you have a black grass problem.

I'm hoping to achieve higher yields & higher margins. Get a poor tillering season and not all the solar energy I want to turn into grain gets intercepted by the canopy. Sunlight hitting the ground just encourages weeds, especially late germinating fat hen, fumitory, groundsel, willowherb, thistles, polygonums & wild oats. Seed is a relatively cheap input so higher rates is insurance. 32.5 cm wide row spacing doesn't help either.
 

Richard III

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
CW5 Cheshire
I think you're right about seed rates. I had hoped that winter cereals would have long enough to tiller out but the lack of soil N mineralisation from cultivation does just what you describe. For spring cereals it's worse. IMO the only crop this wouldn't apply to is osr that branches out well enough by itself after spring N.

What do you no tillers think about seed rates @Andy Howard @Clive @martian @Simon Chiles @Simon C @Fish @Knockie ? No offence to those I've missed off the list! @juke @Badshot @farmingfred

I kept my seed rates the same when I started No Till, but found on average that my crops were too thin rather than too thick. Cold, wet springs like this are the problem, the wheat won't tiller much to fill a gap. Light, free draining soils don't really suffer with this problem though. I've upped wheat seed rates by 10%, but I think I need to push them a bit higher on the worst bits of soil.

One problem here is if the wheat drops below about 500 heads/m, the crop becomes a badgers play ground just before harvest and yield drops to 0t/Ha. (n)
 

Badshot

Member
Location
Kent
15272384497885604886463647595101.jpg
15272395982614813077554264840071.jpg

Not sure if that's showing up well, but I'm very happy. This was drilled 16 days ago
 

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