Your chance to help design ELMS

[Sid]

^^^^ I've mentioned this before on TFF. My rubbish old farm buildings which I haven't converted are home to barn owls, swallows, and even a hedgehog in the straw shed. If the powers that be are serious about wildlife, they could throw some money at me and others not to convert old buildings.
Public goods ? Hmmmm ? Hmmmm ?

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Went to see a laid back olde worldly farm while ago, cobbled sheds, pigeon lofts, hen house, stables,pig stys all in a courtyard dated 1800 and something, if he sells it it will converted and lost, but why shouldn't he benefit when others have? Difficult one for sure!

 

[Sid]

Did you mention in another thread that you were part of an ELMS pilot trial? The cluster I'm part of is next to 2 others wrapped around a National Nature Reserve, so has attracted a bit of attention from NE and DEFRA. We've got 3 more in the process of starting up near us too. 2 of our 3 clusters opted not to seek NE facilitation funding as it cost as much as it benefitted. That also piqued the interest of DEFRA, especially their finance team! We found a charitable trust to get some cash from plus we put in £1/ha/year ourselves which covers most of the survey work.

Martin Down Farmer Cluster

Keep up to date with everything happening at Martin Down and our neighbouring clusters on Twitter – @MDSuperCluster Established: 2016 Lead farmer: Tim Palmer Facilitator: Megan Lock [email protected] Members: 12 Area of outer boundary (inc. NNR):

www.farmerclusters.com

NE running our trial.?

 

[DRC]

^^^^ I've mentioned this before on TFF. My rubbish old farm buildings which I haven't converted are home to barn owls, swallows, and even a hedgehog in the straw shed. If the powers that be are serious about wildlife, they could throw some money at me and others not to convert old buildings.
Public goods ? Hmmmm ? Hmmmm ?

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I know someone who got a lot of money via the HLS scheme, to maintain his old farm buildings.

 

[Steevo]

All sounds pretty early days to me - not much detail in that.

Not surprising though.

 

[Steevo]

"Cost Plus/Income Forgone with an incentive to make it worthwhile" and "stronger incentive" - that's encouraging.

I think the easiest way to incentivise people would be to reduce the paperwork burden - that would make it far more "accessible".

I do think that it will be rather too late for many by the time it kicks off though.

 

[Tubbylew]

"Cost Plus/Income Forgone with an incentive to make it worthwhile" and "stronger incentive" - that's encouraging.

I think the easiest way to incentivise people would be to reduce the paperwork burden - that would make it far more "accessible".

I do think that it will be rather too late for many by the time it kicks off though.

Cost plus income forgone plus an incentive, will only be worthwhile until the suppliers and contractors cotton on, as a farmer I think I'd rather face the vagaries of the world market than be dictated to by people who take an awfully long time to say "we[don't know but are hoping for the best]..." however as a hedglaying contractor I can't wait, it can't come soon enough, I do hope it goes up with inflation, how much was that grenidier truck again?...I should say it's all academic from my point of view, as those decisions are above my pay grade.

 

[Brisel]

DEFRA need to consider that taking land out of production also concentrates the overheads, so it's not just a question of gross margin foregone.

 

[Steevo]

DEFRA need to consider that taking land out of production also concentrates the overheads, so it's not just a question of gross margin foregone.

Yes, exactly. Time especially is one of those overheads!

This is the first time I've heard them mention it being attractive enough to get farmers across the board involved. it must be remembered that there is a significant element of "risk" involved too. I'm unsure whether they realise that level they would have to offer though to make it stack up for many, especially given the payment delays, inspections, and all the excess paperwork that has gone with previous schemes. We've already heard talk they want this to be applied for via agents - that in itself doesn't inspire confidence imo.

ELMS is just like starting up any new venture - you don't know quite what to expect so the return has to seem worthwhile enough to overcome this risk, else farmers will invest their time in another holiday let, or something else..

 

[E_B]

Thanks for asking my question, and a decent answer given.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Can we ask further questions for the Defra man to answer? I would like to ask how the simple menu of options we had with ELS has been replaced with something which certainly appears more complicated even if it isn't.

 

[DrWazzock]

Could I get a grant for running and maintaining a 1970’s farm?
Busy cleaning out the grain stores. Lainchbury 8 ton an hour elevator. Almet 3 t per hour drier, radial simplex bins. All in reasonable fettle. A work of agricultural heritage. Could do with a new roof. Soon all of these installations will be lost forever. They aren’t often standard but “artisan” made around much older buildings. Certainly ramblers often stop and stare in wonderment at the heath Robinson aspect of it all when it’s actually at full throttle. I’m sure Jonathan Meades could run a TV series on the artistic merit of it all.

I find there is a very fine line between scrap, assets, and art here.

 

[ollie989898]

Load of cobblers the lot of it. Be mad to go putting your neck in that noose.

 

[DrWazzock]

On a serious note I think the big difference with ELMS is its not so much a top up but an alternative. It really should be seen as a different business if you are going to max it out and for that you need a different mindset. For the higher tiers it means leaving farming behind really, maybe for a long time and for me I would well out of my comfort zone with that.
For me the Tier 1 looks like BPS with knobs on but probably for a lot less money. The higher tiers are as I say above more like diversification.
Preferred option. Sell it to somebody who likes all that. Retire with a house and 10 acres to fart about on.
Drive the spray van.

 

[ollie989898]

On a serious note I think the big difference with ELMS is its not so much a top up but an alternative. It really should be seen as a different business if you are going to max it out and for that you need a different mindset. For the higher tiers it means leaving farming behind really, maybe for a long time and for me I would well out of my comfort zone with that.
For me the Tier 1 looks like BPS with knobs on but probably for a lot less money. The higher tiers are as I say above more like diversification.
Preferred option. Sell it to somebody who likes all that. Retire with a house and 10 acres to fart about on.

Have they announced how much tax payers (not from EU coffers any longer) will be provided for this?

I'm in favour of land owners in specific areas being paid to allow salt marshes etc to form, but I see no need or justification for a blanket scheme that just anyone can enter.

 

[GeorgeK]

How much are hares going to be worth? I counted about a dozen out mowing today, all in different places, so not the same ones. Also a load of deer, at least one buzzard and there's 2 barn owl fledglings in the box in my hay shed, and 2 more in a tree box. How much is that little lot worth as 'environmental outcomes'?

Nothing, everyone knows there's no such thing as wildlife on a conventional farm! Bulldoze the lot then you can get paid for habitat creation

 

[DrWazzock]

Have they announced how much tax payers (not from EU coffers any longer) will be provided for this?

I'm in favour of land owners in specific areas being paid to allow salt marshes etc to form, but I see no need or justification for a blanket scheme that just anyone can enter.

I think you are right there. Its pointless us here joining to create what? Naturally it’s heathland and woodland if we let it revert but I’d say there is plenty of that here in the 2000 acre forestry plantation next door. In fact our mixed farm already provides a bit of variation with dyke banks, a copse, grazing land and arable crops. It would cost a fortune to recreate heathland as people envisage heathland but it would turn to agricultural scrub full of pernicious weeds if we just stopped farming it. Yes some farms would lend themselves to rewilding but this one would just look a bloody mess.

 

[ollie989898]

I think you are right there. Its pointless us here joining to create what? Naturally it’s heathland and woodland if we let it revert but I’d say there is plenty of that here in the 2000 acre forestry plantation next door. In fact our mixed farm already provides a bit of variation with dyke banks, a copse, grazing land and arable crops. It would cost a fortune to recreate heathland as people envisage heathland but it would turn to agricultural scrub full of pernicious weeds if we just stopped farming it. Yes some farms would lend themselves to rewilding but this one would just look a bloody mess.

A mess in your eyes, or mine, is often a boon in ecological terms but I take your point. I believe people who own land (even if they aren't farming it) that is in the correct area and with the potential to recreate natural landscape/habitats that have been lost should be granted money for remedial works to get these portions of their land back that way. But for someone who farms 2000 acres in the East, tore out every hedge or fence and its wall to wall arable crops, apart from being paid to plant trees on it, I don't see what else they should really expect.

 

[ajd132]

apparently there is is going to be 70,000 advisors/inspectors. Thats half of the current BPS money gone.
I cant see ELMS being anything more than what is currently available on countryside stewardship for profitable and productive farms. I completely discounting any kind of government money business planning going foward. Anything we can get will be a bonus. We seem to be farming in the way they want anyway so may be able to get something. Prepare for the worst hope for the best!

 

[DrWazzock]

The deer come out of the woods to graze our beet. They know what decent tucker is. Skylarks nest in the beet and wagtails follow the harvester. Take away the crops and we are all the poorer. Things don’t really thrive on the sort of landscape some envisage. Nature makes the most of what’s provided.

 

[DrWazzock]

A mess in your eyes, or mine, is often a boon in ecological terms but I take your point. I believe people who own land (even if they aren't farming it) that is in the correct area and with the potential to recreate natural landscape/habitats that have been lost should be granted money for remedial works to get these portions of their land back that way. But for someone who farms 2000 acres in the East, tore out every hedge or fence and its wall to wall arable crops, apart from being paid to plant trees on it, I don't see what else they should really expect.

I could see bracken getting a big hold here, left unmanaged. It’s all round the edge of the forestry commission land and if we didn’t spray it at the boundary and cultivate it would soon take over. It’s not really much use to man or beast nor are dense thickets of gorse. Natural habitats can be quite “monoculture” with whatever species suits the location taking over. What’s in a beech wood. Not a lot except for in the clearings. A couple of hours walking in a wood and I’m bored. Most people are, that’s why you only see dog walkers in the woods. It’s a place for a dump to most of the public and it would actually be better for the wildlife if they kept out, but there is all this open access nonsense from the populists who should have learned by now that all most people want is an ice cream and a donut at Skegness, and frankly I don’t blame them.