Cross Slot drilling into Rye covercrop

shakerator · Sep 11, 2014

I am seeding osr on clay now as it is the best decision for the soil at this stage

On loam I can do anything I like.
On clay there are areas where the disk drill would still ball up and seize under no till. And that is after a summer cover like Clive's last year (mustard legumix, thought it would dry the profile, one wet winter and back to square1!)

Clay should be growing trees......period!

Clive · Sep 11, 2014

I guess it just highlights the diversity of soil in the uk then and makes studies of what others have done and do a little pointless

You have to find what works for you so maybe zero-till is a step to far and @Feldspar might be better to look at a shallow cultivation system (your only looking for a dry 2" afterall) followed by a low disturbance drill ?

warksfarmer · Sep 11, 2014

Clive said:
Lee's the master of force now with his ploughs and combi drills !

No plough of our own but yes a £1500 combi drill that was the only reason we established wheat in autumn 2012 that went on to make group 1 spec and 4t/ac sold. No idea how we managed that yield but what I do know is that the vaderstad was parked up looking sorry for itself.

Absolutely no issue putting the combination drill on to sow crops because they will grow.

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

Clive said:
I guess it just highlights the diversity of soil in the uk then and makes studies of what others have done and do a little pointless

You have to find what works for you so maybe zero-till is a step to far and @Feldspar might be better to look at a shallow cultivation system (afterall your only looking fir a dry 2" afterall) followed by a low disturbance drill ?

No, I think zero till can work, but the soil needs to be exposed to the sun and wind to dry and become friable in complete opposition to what most no-till people say (think No-till Bill actually left his soil completely bare IIRC - @martian ?). Creating mats of residue is not an option (even though they do appear to work very well at suppressing weeds - no black-grass germinating in this field at all where there's cover). Also a range of establishment techniques is important.

Probably not important but I would have been curious to see how the Cross Slot would have performed in this situation. Problem is after drilling the smeared soil is exposed to the sun and wind and then bakes pretty hard. Smearing is not bad per se as long as it doesn't dry out - CS might work in that respect with the seed on a ledge idea. Still think the press wheels would have blocked though.

Clive · Sep 11, 2014

warksfarmer said:
No plough of our own but yes a £1500 combi drill that was the only reason we established wheat in autumn 2012 that went on to make group 1 spec and 4t/ac sold. No idea how we managed that yield but what I do know is that the vaderstad was parked up looking sorry for itself.

Absolutely no issue putting the combination drill on to sow crops because they will grow.

Not suggesting it didn't work or wasn't the right thing to do given the extreme situation but it certainly was brute force and I guess maybe has longer term implications for soil structure that I'm sure you will put right in subsequent seasons

dontknowanything · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
At the risk of reigniting the "w

No, I think zero till can work, but the soil needs to be exposed to the sun and wind to dry and become friable in complete opposition to what most no-till people say (think No-till Bill actually left his soil completely bare). Creating mats of residue is not an option (even though they do appear to work very well at suppressing weeds - no black-grass germinating in this field at all where there's cover). Also a range of establishment techniques is important.

Probably not important but I would have been curious to see how the Cross Slot would have performed in this situation. Problem is after drilling the smeared soil is exposed to the sun and wind and then bakes pretty hard. Smearing is not bad per se as long as it doesn't dry out - CS might work in that respect with the seed on a ledge idea. Still think the press wheels would have blocked though.

Go on, tell us what you were going to reignite before you decided not to?

Clive · Sep 11, 2014

dontknowanything said:
Go on, tell us what you were going to reignite before you decided not to?

God please no !

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

dontknowanything said:
Go on, tell us what you were going to reignite before you decided not to?

It was going to be the "whether the CS gives better establishment" debate. Have slightly strayed to far in this direction as it is.

We always seem to end up with the what drill question. I think this situation is not really to do with the drill, it's the cover. That's what I'm going to try and think about addressing. Unfortunately too late to bale fields that are destined for spring barley as an experiment.

dontknowanything · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
It was going to be the "whether the CS gives better establishment" debate. Have slightly strayed to far in this direction as it is.

We always seem to end up with the what drill question. I think this situation is not really to do with the drill, it's the cover. That's what I'm going to try and think about addressing. Unfortunately too late to bale fields that are destined for spring barley as an experiment.

Well on the one hand...

Nevermind

SilliamWhale · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
At the risk of reigniting the "w

No, I think zero till can work, but the soil needs to be exposed to the sun and wind to dry and become friable in complete opposition to what most no-till people say (think No-till Bill actually left his soil completely bare IIRC - @martian ?). Creating mats of residue is not an option (even though they do appear to work very well at suppressing weeds - no black-grass germinating in this field at all where there's cover). Also a range of establishment techniques is important.

Probably not important but I would have been curious to see how the Cross Slot would have performed in this situation. Problem is after drilling the smeared soil is exposed to the sun and wind and then bakes pretty hard. Smearing is not bad per se as long as it doesn't dry out - CS might work in that respect with the seed on a ledge idea. Still think the press wheels would have blocked though.

There is nothing wrong with bare soil feldspar. I cover crop and I like them here and there but in my opinion its still more important to no till (and no disturb) and little cover than to cultivate and lots of cover. I am sometimes totally happy to just leave an overwinter stubble with straw baled too if needs be - once every so often.

But we're talking oilseed rape in the main aren't we? It likes to die.

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

Still seems odd to plant seeds into a "weed suppressing mulch". Never could really see why the mulch could tell the difference between the planted seed and the weed. My no-till trial went into pretty bare bean stubble and did well. Bit I tried into chopped winter wheat stubble was too wet, slotted and got eaten by slugs.

Come to think of it, lack of cover will help with slugs. Another major bugbear atm.

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
There is nothing wrong with bare soil feldspar. I cover crop and I like them here and there but in my opinion its still more important to no till (and no disturb) and little cover than to cultivate and lots of cover. I am sometimes totally happy to just leave an overwinter stubble with straw baled too if needs be - once every so often.

But we're talking oilseed rape in the main aren't we? It likes to die.

I think particularly with chalky boulder clays as they don't really cap overwinter.

SilliamWhale · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
Still seems odd to plant seeds into a "weed suppressing mulch". Never could really see why the mulch could tell the difference between the planted seed and the weed. My no-till trial went into pretty bare bean stubble and did well. Bit I tried into chopped winter wheat stubble was too wet, slotted and got eaten by slugs.

Come to think of it, lack of cover will help with slugs. Another major bugbear atm.

Because weeds are opportunist.

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
Because weeds are opportunist.

But if you plant spring barley into a mulch which is creating propionic and acetic acid and the like, it isn't going to be very keen to take the opportunity either.

SilliamWhale · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
I think particularly with chalky boulder clays as they don't really cap overwinter.

Once you start giving the chance (ie leaving it alone a bit) I don't think any soils cap that much, or rather I think the tillage makes them cap because of the squeezing of soil particles together. As Simon Chiles says you just need to figure out where to jump off - OSR into chopped WW is probably not the best place!

Clive · Sep 11, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
Once you start giving the chance (ie leaving it alone a bit) I don't think any soils cap that much, or rather I think the tillage makes them cap because of the squeezing of soil particles together. As Simon Chiles says you just need to figure out where to jump off - OSR into chopped WW is probably not the best place!

Amazes me how so many seem happy to try osr into wheat as a first step into dd when it has to be the hardest situation with highest failure rate

Wheat into osr or beans is a much easier thing to do

warksfarmer · Sep 11, 2014

Clive said:
Not suggesting it didn't work or wasn't the right thing to do given the extreme situation but it certainly was brute force and I guess maybe has longer term implications for soil structure that I'm sure you will put right in subsequent seasons

Disagree. Farmers have been combi drilling for many years returning around 4t/ac apparently.

Your system as an average over 10 yrs doesn't offer a yield advantage.

Yes this years it's done well but so has max till. Know one farmers who's averaged 4.45t/ac over 900ac of wheat. Weighbridge weighed as well.

Clive · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
But if you plant spring barley into a mulch which is creating propionic and acetic acid and the like, it isn't going to be very keen to take the opportunity either.

I had a load of calcifert on standby if it had come wet post osr drilling, it's been dry so still in the bag at the moment to be applied when convenient

SilliamWhale · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
But if you plant spring barley into a mulch which is creating propionic and acetic acid and the like, it isn't going to be very keen to take the opportunity either.

I don't think its that simple. ie we don't yet really have a good enough blueprint on the efficacy of covers in preventing spring barley germination. I thought mine looked crap this year but was marvellous in the end. But it can so much depend on what crop comes before or after, or what the cover is etc.

Personally if I were you I'd leave covers to one side for a year or two and perfect your experience on the drilling side ie what drill to use, when it goes well best etc. and then bring in some stuff with covers after in easier situations.

Clive · Sep 11, 2014

warksfarmer said:
Disagree. Farmers have been combi drilling for many years returning around 4t/ac apparently.

Your system as an average over 10 yrs doesn't offer a yield advantage.

Yes this years it's done well but so has max till. Know one farmers who's averaged 4.45t/ac over 900ac of wheat. Weighbridge weighed as well.

Yes farmers have been wrecking soil, burning carbon reserves and mining it for a long time - doesn't make it right or sustainable though ! Lucky for some that they have pretty decent reserves though so can still get great yields no matter how badly they go about it in some cases

Yield comparisons between farms are pointless, I could quote a zerotil farm to you that has average 5t this year but all it proves is how much better his soil is than mine and many other farmers, your not going to get 4.45t out of my soil if you planted every seed by hand, what's important is yield advantage on your own farm and so far I've seen a massive improvement in each of the 3 years we have run this system

Cross Slot drilling into Rye covercrop

Member

Staff Member

Member

Member

Staff Member

Member

Staff Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Staff Member

Member

Staff Member

Member

Staff Member

0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

Share this page