Cross Slot drilling into Rye covercrop

SilliamWhale · Sep 11, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
Because weeds are opportunist.

Feldspar said:
But if you plant spring barley into a mulch which is creating propionic and acetic acid and the like, it isn't going to be very keen to take the opportunity either.

There's a good discussion to be had about how we simply create the weed conditions we deserve and that you can virtually predict what will happen so easily that you wonder why we're even surprised when weeds become problems.

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
Personally if I were you I'd leave covers to one side for a year or two and perfect your experience on the drilling side ie what drill to use, when it goes well best etc. and then bring in some stuff with covers after in easier situations.

That's what I'm doing. Going to do quite a bit of WW drilled direct into spring beans and WOSR stubbles for the first time in a major way.

Was out lamping last night and it's quite thrilling seeing an entire 500ac farm uncultivated at this time of year when it's surrounded by brown fields. Pair of barn owls seemed to be enjoying the stubbles though which was a nice sight.

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

Clive said:
Yes farmers have been wrecking soil, burning carbon reserves and mining it for a long time - doesn't make it right or sustainable though ! Lucky for some that they have pretty decent reserves though so can still get great yields no matter how badly they go about it in some cases

Yield comparisons between farms are pointless, I could quote a zerotil farm to you that has average 5t this year but all it proves is how much better his soil is than mine and many other farmers, your not going to get 4.45t out of my soil if you planted every seed by hand, what's important is yield advantage on your own farm and so far I've seen a massive improvement in each of the 3 years we have run this system

I thought you said that last year your yields were a bit meh?

SilliamWhale · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
That's what I'm doing. Going to do quite a bit of WW drilled direct into spring beans and WOSR stubbles for the first time in a major way.

Was out lamping last night and it's quite thrilling seeing an entire 500ac farm uncultivated at this time of year when it's surrounded by brown fields. Pair of barn owls seemed to be enjoying the stubbles though which was a nice sight.

And in all probability (unless we have a nightmare amount of bad weather) that 500 acs will do very well. Its a good year to start drilling WW into that sort of thing for sure. Dry and warm. (lots of aphids though!

)

p.s. your old man will hit the roof if it goes wrong

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
And in all probability (unless we have a nightmare amount of bad weather) that 500 acs will do very well. Its a good year to start drilling WW into that sort of thing for sure. Dry and warm. (lots of aphids though! )

I definitely think that bean stubbles are fine. OSR I'm still a little hesitant about. Huge amount of slugs in the OSR stubbles - have raked twice and will probably have to pellet before drilling because of the inexperience with this. Interestingly one of the Claydon family who contract farms one farm pig-tails and then rolls the OSR stubbles because of slugs. Again residue is the key thing here. No residue, no slugs; poorly spread residue from combine in piles, lots of slugs.

Clive · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
I thought you said that last year your yields were a bit meh?

Yes they were, drought murdered light soils at grain fill here, nothing I or any man can do about that, however zerotil crops outperformed those where we had cultivated still so a positive result still, things could (and would have) been worse and were for neighbours on same soil I spoke to

Clive · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
That's what I'm doing. Going to do quite a bit of WW drilled direct into spring beans and WOSR stubbles for the first time in a major way.

Was out lamping last night and it's quite thrilling seeing an entire 500ac farm uncultivated at this time of year when it's surrounded by brown fields. Pair of barn owls seemed to be enjoying the stubbles though which was a nice sight.

Mzuri ? Claydon or a bit of both ? Any more 750a demo's ?

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

Clive said:
Yes they were, drought murdered light soils at grain fill here, nothing I or any man can do about that, however zerotil crops outperformed those where we had cultivated still so a positive result still, things could (and would have) been worse and were for neighbours on same soil I spoke to

Yes, but if you had waited until the rain came before drilling. And if it didn't come then you could always plant a crop the next year...

Clive · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
Yes, but if you had waited until the rain came before drilling. And if it didn't come then you could always plant a crop the next year...

Once a crop is planted its fate is largely out of my hands, while it's still in a bag it's totally in my hands !

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

Clive said:
Mzuri ? Claydon or a bit of both ? Any more 750a demo's ?

Mishmash of both. This OSR field in question has patches of both drills in different areas. I had the Mzuri legs really shallow anyway so both doing similar job.

Soil hasn't been dry enough to work deeply all summer. Can see now why historically we have mole drained rather than subsoil.

On a slight aside I now love Michelin Xeobibs. Claydon tractor has Multibibs at 23psi and I was running at 8psi on the other tractor. Slots behind the wheels on the Mulitbibs. I went rolling today with a 220 hp tractor on 8m rolls (overkill obviously) even though there was a smaller tractor in the yard. Why? Smaller tractor's tyres are at 20psi. I recon at 6-8 psi you are probably increasing chance of OSR germinating due to better seed to soil contact than if you hadn't driven there!

Baling Hay · Sep 11, 2014

I have said this before but people struggling with covers etc. would really benefit with having some sheep eat it down first.

I appreciate though that many people don't want livestock.

Clive · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
Mishmash of both. This OSR field in question has patches of both drills in different areas. I had the Mzuri legs really shallow anyway so both doing similar job.

Soil hasn't been dry enough to work deeply all summer. Can see now why historically we have mole drained rather than subsoil.

On a slight aside I now love Michelin Xeobibs. Claydon tractor has Multibibs at 23psi and I was running at 8psi on the other tractor. Slots behind the wheels on the Mulitbibs. I went rolling today with a 220 hp tractor on 8m rolls (overkill obviously) even though there was a smaller tractor in the yard. Why? Smaller tractor's tyres are at 20psi. I recon at 6-8 psi you are probably increasing chance of OSR germinating due to better seed to soil contact than if you hadn't driven there!

Xeobib and Axiobib are the only tyre I will allow on my soil ! One of the biggest steps forward in AG mechanisation in the last decade IMO yet not many really even notice them !

Feldspar · Sep 11, 2014

Steakeater said:
I have said this before but people struggling with covers etc. would really benefit with having some sheep eat it down first.

I appreciate though that many people don't want livestock.

After watching First Time Farmers I was reminded by how cushy arable farming is. Not quite ready to give up my skiing yet!

Baling Hay · Sep 11, 2014

Feldspar said:
After watching First Time Farmers I was reminded by how cushy arable farming is. Not quite ready to give up my skiing yet!

sh!t that is on now!

Clive · Sep 12, 2014

Steakeater said:
I have said this before but people struggling with covers etc. would really benefit with having some sheep eat it down first.

I appreciate though that many people don't want livestock.

I think a return to mixed farming is inevitable at some point, trouble is livestock needs to pay better to make get the average lazy barley Barron interested enough !

Simon C · Sep 12, 2014

Feldspar said:
Not quite sure this is the right thread but I think we were vaguely on this topic above.

Anyway, I am now rapidly moving towards the view that soil cover is an extremely bad idea for direct drilling in my situation.

I have been attempting to plant rape into one of my extended over winter stubble fields. This was one which I've mentioned a few times as it had a huge growth of black-grass which was sprayed off and then formed a mat over the soil.

On the plus side, I really did see the suppressant effect of the mulch. Hardly weeds have grown where the mulch is thick (as in almost none whatsoever). In the barer areas there is a healthy crop of grounsel which has necessitated an extra spray.

I made a first attempt to drill this field a few weeks ago when we drilled the bulk of a rape. At the time the rape going into barley stubbles was going in well and the soil was pretty dry. Trying in this field with the Mzuri I was blocking the drill hugely in no time at all. The soil was so wet that the front tines were just making a smearing hugely, mixing the mud with the black-grass residue and forming a blooming great mess. So obviously aborted.

Then we had a fair bit of rain but then for the past two weeks we've had almost no rain at all. Admittedly quite humid and overcast for the first week but still dry. Most other fields (e.g. bean stubbles and growing OSR) are very dry. So I thought this is as long a dry spell as one could hope for, we got to try again. Another failure. Soil still sodding wet, poor seed coverage, no tilth at all, lots of blockages. For various reasons (to do with black-grass and previous chemical usage on this field) I really didn't want to plough and wanted the field in rape if possible.

Next plan was to mow the entire field (70ac with topper took some time). Pulled some old Opico discs and seeder unit out of the back of the shed and tried them. Worked well in places but not really heavy enough to cut through straw mat. Waiting a few more sunny days until yesterday and then tried again. This time I tested the Mzuri in an area with slightly less straw and it worked OK and so decided to go. Even a slightly difference in the amount of straw made a huge difference to the way the soil worked. This field is old parkland and is normally one of the easier working fields with relatively high OM levels. In thicker matted areas it worked like the worst clay fields on the farm. In the bare areas it behaved like normal and drilling proceeded happily.

All in all the lesson learnt is the extent to which soil cover will trap moisture and hugely affect the characteristics of the soil. On our clays too little soil moisture really is hardly ever a problem. I think to make direct drilling of any sort work one of the highest priorities needs to be drying the soil out as much as possible. This is what ploughing does extremly well and that's why it's so prevalent in these parts. Given this experience I seriously doubt that cover crops will have a place on the farm because my aim is pretty much the exact opposite of most no-tillers in other parts of the world. I can also see the benefit of removing straw off the field too but really wish to avoid this. Still think that stripper headers would help considerably in this regard.

Sorry, only just catching up with this thread.

@Feldspar your experience and conclusions with cover crops are exactly the same as mine, just that I am a year or two ahead of you so I have the stripper header already. I have felt a bit of a lone voice but perhaps it is just an East Anglian problem although I don't see why we should be any different, we are dryer than everyone else as well.

I even hate crop residue hanging around for too long and love going round with the straw rake to speed up it's decomposition by getting a bit of soil mixed with it. I don't think raking kills many slugs, but it sure does disrupt their favorite habitat which is under wet lumps of straw. Raking dries out the straw and soil surface and fills any small cracks that they like climbing in and out of so have nowhere left to live.

dontknowanything · Sep 12, 2014

Simon C said:
I have felt a bit of a lone voice but perhaps it is just an East Anglian problem although I don't see why we should be any different, we are dryer than everyone else as well
.

Not everywhere in east anglia has heavy clay soil!

Feldspar · Sep 12, 2014

Simon C said:
Sorry, only just catching up with this thread.

@Feldspar your experience and conclusions with cover crops are exactly the same as mine, just that I am a year or two ahead of you so I have the stripper header already. I have felt a bit of a lone voice but perhaps it is just an East Anglian problem although I don't see why we should be any different, we are dryer than everyone else as well.

I even hate crop residue hanging around for too long and love going round with the straw rake to speed up it's decomposition by getting a bit of soil mixed with it. I don't think raking kills many slugs, but it sure does disrupt their favorite habitat which is under wet lumps of straw. Raking dries out the straw and soil surface and fills any small cracks that they like climbing in and out of so have nowhere left to live.

Do you think the stripper header keeps the soil surface much drier (or allows it dry faster)?

I was digging around in the spring bean stubbles today. Have had lots of sun and wind over them and there's still a lot of moisture an inch or so down.

Simon C · Sep 12, 2014

dontknowanything said:
Not everywhere in east anglia has heavy clay soil!

But Feldspar and I can't be the only heavy land farmers in the world trying to no-till and cover crop.

Simon C · Sep 12, 2014

Feldspar said:
Do you think the stripper header keeps the soil surface much drier (or allows it dry faster)?

I was digging around in the spring bean stubbles today. Have had lots of sun and wind over them and there's still a lot of moisture an inch or so down.

Definitely dryer under stripped straw but the losses are just too disheartening. Think we need to play around with varieties and find one that is difficult to thrash, like some spring wheats where it works well.

Cross Slot drilling into Rye covercrop

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