Carbon Choking

Clive · Dec 19, 2014

Walking crops this week and both myself and my agronomist are not happy with a couple of blocks of wheat right now

in both case these crops were well established and got away well to begin but have now stalled and are going backward, they look desperate for N.

I saw this a bit last year, come spring and warm weather / N applications and all was well again, this year the effect is more clear and more concerning

I think we might have got so much C back into these soils over the last 3 years that we have upset the C/N balance to a point where N is becoming very limited. This is proved a bit on areas were previous crop wasn't so good where the wheat looks best

All will be ok but I reckon its something we will have to watch and can see me needing to up N levels to deal with this until the soil balance returns, can see myself using a lot more N in the seedbed in these situations

anyone else suffer from this and whats you approach to stop it being an issue ?

The Ruminant · Dec 19, 2014

Clive said:
Walking crops this week and both myself and my agronomist are not happy with a couple of blocks of wheat right now

in both case these crops were well established and got away well to begin but have now stalled and are going backward, they look desperate for N.

I saw this a bit last year, come spring and warm weather / N applications and all was well again, this year the effect is more clear and more concerning

I think we might have got so much C back into these soils over the last 3 years that we have upset the C/N balance to a point where N is becoming very limited. This is proved a bit on areas were previous crop wasn't so good where the wheat looks best

All will be ok but I reckon its something we will have to watch and can see me needing to up N levels to deal with this until the soil balance returns, can see myself using a lot more N in the seedbed in these situations

anyone else suffer from this and whats you approach to stop it being an issue ?

On another thread you were saying you couldn't see the value of livestock and thought your ground benefited from returning all the C to the soil rather than walking some out of the gate...... Sounds to me like you need some livestock in the system

Clive · Dec 19, 2014

The Ruminant said:
On another thread you were saying you couldn't see the value of livestock and thought your ground benefited from returning all the C to the soil rather than walking some out of the gate...... Sounds to me like you need some livestock in the system

I see the value, I just can't work out how to economically make them fit (yet)

I think I need to either slow down on how much C I'm stuffing back into soil or start using more N to deal with it better

Simon Chiles · Dec 19, 2014

Clive said:
I see the value, I just can't work out how to economically make them fit (yet)

I think I need to either slow down on how much C I'm stuffing back into soil or start using more N to deal with it better

It might be worth a tissue test, my money would be on it not being as short of N as you think and will sort itself out in the spring when it warms up.

Clive · Dec 19, 2014

Simon Chiles said:
It might be worth a tissue test, my money would be on it not being as short of N as you think and will sort itself out in the spring when it warms up.

what would you suspect if not N then Simon ? its only some fields, most look fine but these few crops are definitely going backwards now

Simon Chiles · Dec 19, 2014

Clive said:
what would you suspect if not N then Simon ? its only some fields, most look fine but these few crops are definitely going backwards now

Sorry you missed my point, it is probably short of N but if you did a tissue test it wouldn't be that short. When it warms up it'll sort itself out. Had some wheat that looked poor but a tissue test showed all to be OK, didn't chuck any fert on but had I not done a test would have been tempted, it warmed up and the crop greened up, had I put some N on I would have thought it worked well.

Jim Bullock · Dec 20, 2014

I am not going to explain my answer very well..but, we have all pushed yields using physics and chemistry at the expense of biology.. you have altered the balance in favour of biology and the chemistry has not yet caught up and in some cases the physics (crop rooting) might still be out of balance. So the overall effect is N deficiency.
I know I will be shot down in flames by those that know better but over the last 15 years I have often said there can be a dip in direct-drilled crop yields in years 2-5 and I have a graph in my d-d presentation showing just what you are experiencing. It is more profound on some soils more than others and rainfall can be a major influence. It can be reduced through rotation and changes in nutrient management but sadly we cannot control our weather.

dontknowanything · Dec 20, 2014

What were the preceding crops?

Baling Hay · Dec 20, 2014

Clive said:
I see the value, I just can't work out how to economically make them fit (yet)

I think I need to either slow down on how much C I'm stuffing back into soil or start using more N to deal with it better

Well economically they would fit well by reducing N for a start! I suspect you are still thinking spreadsheet farming with regards to individual enterprises, you were so close too!

franklin · Dec 20, 2014

Clive said:
whats you approach to stop it being an issue ?

Slop a bit of N on and dont write it down? Personally, I would like to put some MAP on late as we can on the oats simply to have some N about for the next crop. Perhaps this is possible in the N-max scheme of things. Otherwise, get agronomist to do you a properly justified ticket to pop some on pre-drilling.

Clive · Dec 20, 2014

dontknowanything said:
What were the preceding crops?

millet (which is no surprise as thats was a lot of C and form both crop and cover crop it was planted into) but on another more surprising block of wheat its actually after the Peaola and Lupins ! now you would have assumed there would be plenty residual N after both those crops ?

Clive · Dec 20, 2014

static said:
Slop a bit of N on and dont write it down? Personally, I would like to put some MAP on late as we can on the oats simply to have some N about for the next crop. Perhaps this is possible in the N-max scheme of things. Otherwise, get agronomist to do you a properly justified ticket to pop some on pre-drilling.

I reckon you would loose most of it applied now even if you could ? I doubt much is going to change for a couple of months now but these block will get N a early as is possible in the spring

Clive · Dec 20, 2014

Steakeater said:
Well economically they would fit well by reducing N for a start! I suspect you are still thinking spreadsheet farming with regards to individual enterprises, you were so close too!

don't right me off just yet ! I have something I can't really discus yet on the go ! watch this space

Clive · Dec 20, 2014

Jim Bullock said:
I am not going to explain my answer very well..but, we have all pushed yields using physics and chemistry at the expense of biology.. you have altered the balance in favour of biology and the chemistry has not yet caught up and in some cases the physics (crop rooting) might still be out of balance. So the overall effect is N deficiency.
I know I will be shot down in flames by those that know better but over the last 15 years I have often said there can be a dip in direct-drilled crop yields in years 2-5 and I have a graph in my d-d presentation showing just what you are experiencing. It is more profound on some soils more than others and rainfall can be a major influence. It can be reduced through rotation and changes in nutrient management but sadly we cannot control our weather.

you might be right Jim - time will tell I guess but most of my wheat is looking great, especially the blocks driving into the summer cover which are thriving and look dark green with plenty on N available to them

confused really !

Andrew K · Dec 20, 2014

I wouldnt do anything till you have some sort of backup in the form of soil or tissue test myself, this wet climate cant be helping either.

franklin · Dec 20, 2014

Clive said:
I reckon you would loose most of it applied now even if you could ? I doubt much is going to change for a couple of months now but these block will get N a early as is possible in the spring

No, I think anything now is at the wrong time. Our wheat after spring oats look very sad, but perhaps the reality is that the other stuff looks too good and is too thick? Some warmth in March and some AnS/urea will soon buck it up. It's not like they are dying, and the plant numbers are there. Chances are they will outyield the stuff that looks "good" now. But certainly for the future I am thinking of ways to perk up anything after oats, especially as we are chopping the straw.

Gilchro · Dec 20, 2014

Is the available nitrogen not currently locked up in breaking down all of the C and will become available once the residue is dealt with

Jim Bullock · Dec 20, 2014

Gilchro said:
Is the available nitrogen not currently locked up in breaking down all of the C and will become available once the residue is dealt with

I think you are right, but the problem is that we do not know how long that will take, as it all depends so much on soil moisture and temperature neither of which we have much control over. It is a similar problem when dealing with cover crops.. we know they absorb and in some cases (N) fix nutrients but we do not know, when or how much will be available.

willy · Dec 21, 2014

Have to say, I have found that early drilling is a must for me, hence If I grew millet it would be followed by a spring crop. need the warmth to mineralise a bit of n,also I place very small amounts of n with all crops.

I have also started to remove all straw from wheat and barley, and yet my soil organic matter is still increasing. We are now between 6% and 9%. This was taken by Paul cawood who was with Steve Townsend. I just found that the straw was locking up to much to let the crop get away.

Personally for me dd is great but you can't reverse a system just like that. To much of anything upsets balance. You don't need tissue tests to tell you, because generally they are too late and a snap shot on the day. A bit of common sense and gut instinct, and trial and error.

And remember Rome wasn't built in a day!

DrWazzock · Dec 21, 2014

For us several possible reasons,

1. Loose oxygenated seed bed causing microbes to get busy locking up Mn and N. Won't be the case with direct drilling.

2. Compaction just under drilling depth and/or too much rain and/or a big dose of residual herbicide. Roots struggling to get down away from herbicide.

3. High levels of residue locking up N, but normally not so much of a problem with Zero Till. More of a problem in systems where it's incorporated into the top couple of inches.

4. On arable sands, low cationic exchange capacity due to low levels of organic matter, aggravated by leaching in times of high rainfall. Only answer here is muck and grass.

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